回复 36楼amyfair的帖子 看報導，2/8 ，五天前，俄州與賓州州長發出聲明，告訴事件發生時附近疏散的居民可以回家了。經過空氣持續檢測，指標沒有問題。 https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/east-palestine-update-residents-can-safely-return-home 上面是賓州州政府的網站上的報導： Air quality samples in the area of the wreckage and in nearby residential neighborhoods have consistently showed readings at points below safety screening levels for contaminants of concern. Jha 发表于 2023-02-13 18:38
美国化学学会对这个事件的报道 While vinyl chloride itself is a carcinogen, the burning of the chemical, which releases hydrogen chloride and phosgene, can be immediately lethal. Phosgene, a highly toxic, colorless gas with a strong odor, was notoriously used as a weapon during World War I.
我不敢说太懂，出于人道主义，抛砖引玉一下： Vinyl Chloride Monomer: Combustion products include HC1 (27000 ppm, 盐酸) , CO2, CO, phosgene (光气，40 ppm, 如果按下面这个NIH网站的部分的话，50 ppm的光气可以致命，40 ppm的光气很危险了。但是这种完全敞开空间消散的40 ppm和短距离接触的是否可以等价？), and VCM trace (痕量的Vinyl Chloride残留。虽然是痕量，这么多里面留下的痕量影响如何难以判断，但是从分析化学角度出发，痕量可能只有忽略。). (1971年的分析) (Combustion Products from Vinyl Chloride Monomer: American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal: Vol 32, No 3 (tandfonline.com)) Phosgene at concentrations of 3-5 ppm causes irritation of the eyes and throat with coughing; exposure at 25 ppm for 30-60 min is dangerous; and brief exposure at 50 ppm may be rapidly fatal (Henderson and Haggard, 1943; Hygienic Guide Series, 1968; Patty, 1963; Sax, 1968). (PHOSGENE - Emergency and Continuous Exposure Limits for Selected Airborne Contaminants - NCBI Bookshelf (nih.gov)) Fire Hazard Special Hazards of Combustion Products: Forms highly toxic combustion products such as hydrogen chloride, phosgene, and carbon monoxide. Behavior in Fire: Container may explode in fire. Gas is heavier than air and may travel considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. (USCG, 1999) (NOAA 的网站内容.) 也许说明，未燃烧时，VCM其本身也可能已经一部分进入空气。其比空气重，无色有毒。从这个判断，确实燃烧也许是两害相权取其轻的办法。
Ohio train derailment results in lawsuits, dead animals and lingering questions about toxic chemicals
A black plume rises over East Palestine, Ohio, as a result of a controlled detonation of a portion of the derailed Norfolk Southern trains. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) The fallout continues from the derailment of a train carrying toxic chemicals near the Ohio-Pennsylvania border earlier this month, as local residents file lawsuits and some cast doubt on official assurances about air and water quality. The derailment and evacuation On Feb. 3, 50 train cars operated by Norfolk Southern derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, a town of about 5,000 people located 50 miles northwest of Pittsburgh. That derailment resulted in a massive fire and Gov. Mike DeWine ordering an evacuation on Sunday, Feb. 5. "Within the last two hours, a drastic temperature change has taken place in a rail car, and there is now the potential of a catastrophic tanker failure which could cause an explosion with the potential of deadly shrapnel traveling up to a mile,” DeWine said in a statement, adding that those with children in their home who chose not to evacuate would be subject to arrest. Last Monday, Norfolk Southern released toxic chemicals from five of the derailed tanker cars in an attempt to preempt a larger explosion. One of the chemicals they were most concerned about was vinyl chloride, a colorless gas used in the making of plastic products. According to the National Cancer Institute, exposure to the gas is associated with “with an increased risk of a rare form of liver cancer (hepatic angiosarcoma), as well as primary liver cancer (hepatocellular carcinoma), brain and lung cancers, lymphoma, and leukemia.” The chemical can also enter water supplies and be ingested. The freight train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, is still on fire at midday a day after the accident. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) Concurrent with the releasing of the chemicals, DeWine and Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro issued a wider evacuation order for the area around East Palestine, stating, “The controlled release process involves the burning of the rail cars’ chemicals, which will release fumes into the air that can be deadly if inhaled. Based on current weather patterns and the expected flow of the smoke and fumes, anyone who remains in the red affected area is facing grave danger of death. Anyone who remains in the yellow impacted area is at a high risk of severe injury, including skin burns and serious lung damage.” Two days later, DeWine issued a statement that it was safe for residents to return home, saying, “Air quality samples in the area of the wreckage and in nearby residential neighborhoods have consistently showed readings at points below safety screening levels for contaminants of concern. Based on this information, state and local health officials determined that it is now safe for community members to return to their residences.” James Justice of the Environmental Protection Agency echoed this, saying, “All of the readings we’ve been recording in the community have been at normal concentration. ... Hundreds and hundreds of data points we’ve collected over the time show the air quality is safe.” The EPA has yet to release a full list of the chemicals potentially released in the crash. Kurt Kollar of the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency said that the incident had resulted in the death of fish but that the town’s water supply was safe. The Ohio Department of Natural Resources told Yahoo News on Monday that the estimated stream length affected is approximately 7-and-a-half miles and that the spill killed an estimated 3,500 fish. Workers place booms in a stream as the cleanup continues, Feb. 9. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) “Material does and in this case has entered the water way,” Kollar said, “Actions were taken to minimize that. There were detections through laboratory analysis of it, the unfortunate side [effects] of those were immediately toxic to fish but all the information and data to date is that it’s still been protective to drinking water.” DeWine said Norfolk Southern would pay for testing for private wells supplying rural homes, saying, “It’s very understandable you may want that testing done before you go back in your house.” The company had initially pledged$25,000 to support “the efforts of the American Red Cross and their temporary community shelters.” “The burden is upon them is to assure the public that what they do everyday is safe,” DeWine said of Norfolk Southern last week. “We will hold their feet to the fire — Norfolk Southern’s feet to the fire, as I say, and make sure that everything is done right,” said East Palestine Mayor Trent Conaway. The cause of the derailment is still under investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board. It is the third freight derailment in the state over the last four monthson trains operated by Norfolk Southern. In November, a train derailed in Steubenville, dumping trash into the Ohio River. Officials in Sandusky are still waiting on the company to complete cleanup of an October derailment that spilled paraffin wax and blocked an underpass. A Norfolk Southern freight train. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) “Engineers from the NTSB Materials Laboratory will examine the rail car wheel and axle that potentially experienced a mechanical issue,” the NTSB told Yahoo News in a statement on Monday afternoon. “The tank cars are being decontaminated and NTSB investigators are scheduled to return to Ohio to complete a thorough examination of the tank cars. NTSB investigators continue to review documentation, event recorder data and perform interviews. The preliminary report, which includes all the factual information learned to date, is expected to publish in 30 days.” Sil Caggiano, a former battalion chief with the Youngstown Fire Department and a hazardous materials expert, was critical of the response: “We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open,” he told WKBN, a local TV news affiliate. “I was surprised when they quickly told the people they can go back home, but then said if they feel like they want their homes tested they can have them tested. I would’ve far rather they did all the testing,” Caggiano said, adding, “There’s a lot of what ifs, and we’re going to be looking at this thing 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the line and wondering, ‘Gee, cancer clusters could pop up, you know, well water could go bad.’” Unions have blamed derailments on a new scheduling system and on understaffing. Railroad workers attempted to strike last year in order to gain paid sick leave, but the Democratic-controlled Congress passed a law signed by President Biden forcing them back to work, disappointing many labor leaders. Norfolk Southern is one of the rail companies that currently does not offer paid sick leave to its employees. “They’re really just trying to squeeze as much productivity out of these workers as they can,” Greg Regan, president of the AFL-CIO’s Transportation Trades Department coalition, told the Associated Press. "And when you’re focused on timing and rushing, unfortunately sometimes things can fall through the cracks.” East Palestine residents take legal action against Norfolk Southern Railway Co.People gather at the Norfolk Southern Railways Assistance Center, Feb. 9. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) Although investigation is still underway, Norfolk Southern is already facing mounting federal and civil class-action lawsuits from East Palestine residents demanding accountability — and compensation — for the damages they say they’ve suffered as a result of the accident. The first of several federal lawsuits was reportedly filed in the U.S. District Court in Youngstown last Tuesday, one day after crews released dangerous chemicals from the derailed train cars that were at risk of exploding. That suit, which is seeking class action status, accuses Norfolk Southern Railway Co. of negligence and seeks at least $5 million in damages from the railroad company for people impacted by the release of toxic chemicals as a result of the derailment. The plaintiffs include a local business owner who “suffered damages” as a result of being forced to close his shop during the evacuation, and another resident who allegedly “suffered injuries as a direct and proximate result of his exposure to the toxic chemicals and fumes emanating from the accident site,” according to WPXI, an NBC News affiliate in Pittsburgh. Another class-action lawsuit filed in federal court last week by two local residents alleges that Norfolk Southern is responsible for causing a decrease in the market value of the plaintiffs’ properties which, they contend, may be “uninhabitable for some time” due to the conditions created by the derailment and subsequent evacuation. In addition to the federal cases, at least one civil class-action suit has been filed in Columbiana County Common Pleas Court. The plaintiffs in that case include the operators of two dog kennels in East Palestine. As with the federal lawsuits, the civil complaint accuses Norfolk Southern, as well as personnel aboard the train, of failing to address mechanical issues that appear to have caused the derailment. According to the Steubenville [Ohio] Herald-Star, the civil suit accuses the defendants of not releasing the list of dangerous chemicals aboard the train until days after the derailment, noting that chemicals released into nearby waterways caused the death of several fish. Sick animals raise concerns about possible health effectsResidents of East Palestine have been allowed back into their homes after being forced to evacuate following the derailment. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) Fish aren’t the only animals reportedly suffering in the aftermath of the train derailment. For some, the apparent impact on local wildlife is cause for concern about the potential health effects of the chemicals released in East Palestine. Taylor Holzer, a registered foxkeeper who runs a dairy farm with his family adjacent to the evacuation zone, told the local news affiliate WKBN last week that one of his foxes had died following the derailment and the rest have exhibited a variety of unusual symptoms, including lack of appetite, upset stomach and lethargy, as well as rapid pacing and abnormally puffy faces. “Smoke and chemicals from the train, that’s the only thing that can cause it, because it doesn’t just happen out of nowhere,” Holzer told WKBN. “The chemicals that we’re being told are safe in the air, that’s definitely not safe for the animals ... or people.” The morning after the controlled release of chemicals from the derailed train in East Palestine, a woman who lives more than 10 miles away in North Lima, Ohio, says she found her rooster and five hens dead, with no sign that they’d been attacked by another animal. Amanda Breshears told WKBN she believes the chickens were killed by toxins released in Lebanon, Ohio, that sent the smell of chlorine and other toxins wafting into the Mahoning Valley. Though local officials insisted that the unpleasant odor wasn’t dangerous, Breshears argued that the sudden death of her chickens suggests otherwise. The cleanup of the derailment continues. (Gene J. Puskar/AP) “My video camera footage shows my chickens were perfectly fine before they started this burn, and as soon as they started the burn, my chickens slowed down and they died,” she said. “If it can do this to chickens in one night, imagine what it’s going to do to us in 20 years.” More than a week after the derailment sent a slew of toxic chemicals into the air and waterways in and around East Palestine, the Washington Post reported that many residents, as well as environmental health experts, were continuing to question whether it was safe to return home. Some residents, like Maura Todd, told the Post they’d decided to relocate to Kentucky temporarily, citing the lingering odor of nail polish remover and burning rubber, as well as the headaches and nausea she and her family had experienced after returning to their house last weekend. But others, like Eric Whiting, aren’t able to move their families, forcing them to take local authorities at their word, despite the lingering smell of chlorine in the air. “For a small town, we have to trust them, because what else do we have to do?” Whiting told the Post. “We have to trust that they are not lying to us.”
一个你，一个athen啥，两个完全放屁一般洗地的帖子被顶到上面，呵呵 言之凿凿"靠燃烧是怎么也合成不出来二恶英的" 看看美国化学学会怎么报道这个事件： While vinyl chloride itself is a carcinogen, the burning of the chemical, which releases hydrogen chloride and phosgene, can be immediately lethal. Phosgene, a highly toxic, colorless gas with a strong odor, was notoriously used as a weapon during World War I. https://cen.acs.org/safety/Safety-questions-remain-Ohio-train/101/i6 看看正经的论文怎么讨论氯乙烯不能产生二噁英 Combustion of chloroethene can form polychlorinated dibenzodioxins, as chlorine is a key factor in their formation. The formation of PCDDs and PCDFs occurs in two temperature windows during combustion processes, and the role of chlorine in dioxin formation has been studied extensively. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0957582000708445 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3155/1047-3289.61.5.511
我不敢说太懂，出于人道主义，抛砖引玉一下： Vinyl Chloride Monomer: Combustion products include HC1 (27000 ppm, 盐酸) , CO2, CO, phosgene (光气，40 ppm, 如果按下面这个NIH网站的部分的话，50 ppm的光气可以致命，40 ppm的光气很危险了。但是这种完全敞开空间消散的40 ppm和短距离接触的是否可以等价？), and VCM trace (痕量的Vinyl Chloride残留。虽然是痕量，这么多里面留下的痕量影响如何难以判断，但是从分析化学角度出发，痕量可能只有忽略。). (1971年的分析) (Combustion Products from Vinyl Chloride Monomer: American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal: Vol 32, No 3 (tandfonline.com)) Phosgene at concentrations of 3-5 ppm causes irritation of the eyes and throat with coughing; exposure at 25 ppm for 30-60 min is dangerous; and brief exposure at 50 ppm may be rapidly fatal (Henderson and Haggard, 1943; Hygienic Guide Series, 1968; Patty, 1963; Sax, 1968). (PHOSGENE - Emergency and Continuous Exposure Limits for Selected Airborne Contaminants - NCBI Bookshelf (nih.gov)) Fire Hazard Special Hazards of Combustion Products: Forms highly toxic combustion products such as hydrogen chloride, phosgene, and carbon monoxide. Behavior in Fire: Container may explode in fire. Gas is heavier than air and may travel considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. (USCG, 1999) (NOAA 的网站内容.) 也许说明，未燃烧时，VCM其本身也可能已经一部分进入空气。其比空气重，无色有毒。从这个判断，确实燃烧也许是两害相权取其轻的办法。 MiaGoth 发表于 2023-02-13 23:18
你自己看看新华社对于张家口泄露的说法
张家口化工厂几秒钟炸了5吨氯乙烯，事后环评检测出二噁英，刷满了微博。
Ohio在地上挖坑烧掉1000多吨氯乙烯，烧了足足48个小时，你告诉我不会产生二噁英
我看今天化学101和逻辑101，至少得死一个。
谢谢相关资料。 我是不会在意那些 疫情疫苗军事政治经济甚至是化工都能发表“专业“意见的人的话的
一次性饭盒是聚苯乙烯，不是聚氯乙烯。
CMU这次好惨
机制好像比你说的更加复杂一点
https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncea/iris_drafts/dioxin/nas-review/pdfs/part1_vol1/dioxin_pt1_vol1_ch02_dec2003.pdf
机制二是不是说明单体也能产生？
下风口（东边）和下游的人反正是惨了，毒气毒水可以享受一段时间了。原则上下几次雨空气就没啥问题了。烧出来的产物比氯乙烯本身厉害多了，下风10mile之内基本是短期没法住人了。事故点以西基本没啥问题
下风受影响区域基本包括所有那几个州了。就看你有多娇气了，按西方标准肯定是强致癌物质警告，但按美国标准由于利益所在肯定告诉你没事。但实际上按中国雾霾水平看简直是小菜一碟，完全不影响生活
都是些脑子烧瓦特了的人，什么都往政治上扯。
赞专业解读。氯乙烯燃烧是完全不产生二噁英还是只是少一点？不过我看就算是PVC不完全燃烧产生的二噁英也是pg量级的，切尔诺贝利什么的肯定夸张了，是不是大概相当于当地人突然搬到了垃圾焚烧炉边上？
在对氯乙烯等含氯塑料的焚烧过程中，焚烧温度低于800℃，含氯垃圾不完全燃烧，极易生成二噁英。燃烧后形成氯苯，后者成为二噁英合成的前体。 http://www.sz.gov.cn/hdjl/ywzsk/csglj/hwgl/content/post_7865980.html
今天能在大妈网看到不知来头的自称“化工人士”信誓旦旦氯乙烯烧起来绝对不产生二噁英，洗这种地真是良心被狗吃了
有影响吗？华裔娃在那上学的不少。u Pitt 医学院华人也不少。
估计是很多盐酸。 我认识的环境的AP已经开始着手写本子关于大规模酸性污染生态的修复了，这速度真快
CDC疫情初期说戴口罩没用？
这种声明很难断定是政治考量还是健康科学考量
这光气产生也就是燃烧那几天啊。那位mm 是说这个光气不稳定不会一直在空气里
先把基本事实搞对，张家口炸了一个气柜几千立方米，看压力有多大几吨到几十吨都有可能；Ohio总共5节车皮的氯乙烯，200-300吨。Ohio要是是切尔诺贝利的话张家口至少也是福岛了，看人口密度的话还不见得谁更严重点
我觉得这个结论不完全对。火车泄露这次是氯乙烯，氯乙烯是聚氯乙烯的单体形式。化学式都差不多，就差一个n，两者碳氢氯的比例是一样的都是2:3:1。所以如果加上氧气，燃烧之后还是有可能生成二噁英的。回归一下中学化学，这种产生二噁英的化学式很容易配平。
后面有人回复说碳单质的问题，比如石墨和钻石，性质十分不一样。但我想说你说的是物理性质，两者的化学性质是一样的，充分燃烧之后都是形成二氧化碳。
是否大量产生二噁英，和能否【充分燃烧、高温燃烧】更有关系。高分子聚合物这种有机化学到底能产生啥，量多少，其实也很难估计。关键在于燃烧是否充分。出事的火车载有的是液体氯乙烯，量很大，说实话我对充分燃烧是捏了一把汗。只能说希望还是充分烧了吧这样对自然危害小一些。希望大家都平安！
驴唇不对马嘴。你说的这些含氯塑料都是聚合物，我问的是氯乙烯单体
那人连氯乙烯单体和聚氯乙烯塑料都不分的，哪里知道光气是啥。 光气作为重要的化工原料之一，读书的时候实验室往往放在充满氩气的手套箱里避光保存，就是为了隔绝水气。一遇水气，马上就产生白烟。如此强的反应活性，一出来都变二氧化碳和盐酸。
按我粗浅的理解化学式差不多跟容易合成应该没啥关系吧。。钻石和石墨化学式不也差不多，从石墨到钻石老难合成了吧
官场黑暗
切尔诺贝利肯定是瞎扯了，但是这也比张家口厉害几十上百倍，值得担忧。另外，聚乙烯气柜基本上都是低压气柜，4k Pa左右压力的，2000立方到不了10吨。
塑料工业发展到今天，塑料本身的毒性其实很低，但是为了便于加工往往会加入各种有一定毒性的塑化剂，遇热则有可能从表面释放出来，确实不提倡直接盛热烫的食物。
非化学专业， 虽然不认为这次泄漏有H 打头ID描述的那么可怕
但是你把光气描述的这么温柔， 感觉都要被你无害到像空气一样人畜无害， 我不禁对你前面的科普产生洗地怀疑
我不懂化学， 但是我读历史， 光气有剧毒，在第一次世界大战中用作化学武器，造成85000人死亡。 真像你说的这么轻描淡写， 不会有人用它做化学武器搞大杀戮
所以我撤回前面对你靠谱的评论
所以规模相当于2018年张家口事故的20-60倍吧，这么大的事故肯定不是啥好事，但也不是说世界末日了，整个美国东部都不能住人了，大家赶紧逃命啊什么的
谁跟你说的整个美国东部不能住人？ 你找他去 你这样自己树个稻草人， 有意思吗？
如果是我自己的话。应该就是这个策略了。君子不立危墙之下
当然有信念的人可以忽略
我的处事原则是跟自己相关都是天大的事， 除此， 世界毁灭于我有何干？
EPA有报告，每天都有更新 https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933
不过问题不大， 看几个ID 上蹿下跳煽风点火， 比美国环保组织还激动
不仅烫而且油。
别急， 岁月静好， 多大点事
那就更糟糕了 油容易把塑化剂溶解出来。我看油管上的美食节目也注意到这个，不过光顾着流口水了
你是搞笑的？你家里公司里很多排水管就是聚氯乙烯的
我看到这个，第一反应是，难道国内没人问问当年天津大爆炸的时候，有没有污染物影响人体吗？毕竟感觉那个爆炸即事先不知道，威力也非常大～当时我有认识人，在附近学校，教室玻璃都碎了。
聚氯乙烯燃烧产生二噁英，这和他常用作水管有什么矛盾？
美国还有大量的铅水管呢。
保险公司的朋友说她们现在关注一个叫PFAS 的物质，说是饭盒什么的遇热容易释出，包括纸饭盒上的防水层。搞得我这种靠外卖度日的很怕。
房子除非打骨折，不然几年内是卖不出去的吧？
她的意思可能是她家主要靠喝下水道的水度日？
有亲戚当时在那工作，说味道很大，办公室吊顶的板子掉下来好多，窗户都震碎了，不过爆炸是在滨海新区，离天津市区挺远的，城铁好像一个多小时吧，说市区没感觉。
看把你急的…..
抛开剂量谈毒性都是耍流氓， 咖啡在烘培过程中还产生致癌物质聚丙烯酰胺呢， 全世界人民都爱喝。 出这么大事故，环境部门一直在监测
看看CDC疫情期间的表现，你对美国的环保局这么有信心？
我对美国的律师讼棍更有信心
请相信政府！
天津有污染所以俄亥俄就不会有了。
是说的风向吧？这几天的风是朝东南吹的，也就是从事发地吹向DC方向
美国本地人一直都知道吧，就是华语媒体太迟钝。 反正一周前就有白人朋友跟我说这个事，说紧急撤离做得不好，很多人走的时候忘了带宠物，回家发现死了。
你没弄明白我说的意思，我的意思是俄亥俄的也严重，天津大爆炸也严重，那国内也别总只说美国，国内自己的爆炸案也要拿出来研究反思，给群众交代，多吧？毕竟大多数人生活在国内，还是得活得明白点，别每天人在国内，光明白美国了，没啥用，又不给美国纳税，这么上头干嘛。
天津大爆炸的时候全中国都在关注，俄亥俄的泄露全美国都在关注气球。解决不了问题就装作问题不存在，这才是美国现在最可怕的问题。
这是传说中的围中救美吗？
氯乙烯没有成链，理论上应该更容易产生二噁英。
你跟我抬了这么久化工杠，不会连简单化合物更容易不充分燃烧都不知道吧。
我前面还说错了。要避免产生二噁英的温度不是800度，是1200度，摄氏。
确实完全不知道，夏季还计划去匹兹堡玩，宾馆都订了，到时候不知道安全不，瑟瑟发抖
说说你是啥专业？怎么判断出人家假冒伪劣的？至少应该比他更专业吧
不要拍脑袋想当然，二噁英生成的机制很复杂，和HCl还有大分子碳都有关系，搜一下就知道。PVC是聚合物，燃烧的时候当然比氯乙烯单体更容易生成大分子碳。
城市垃圾焚烧炉中二恶英有两种成因：一是二恶英类物质混入垃圾，二是焚烧炉在燃烧垃圾过程中产生二恶英，其机理相当复杂，有关研究认为，焚烧垃圾时，二恶英的形成机理如下： 2.2.1.高温合成：即高温气相生成PCDD。 在垃圾进入焚烧炉内初期干燥阶段，除水分外含碳氢成分的低沸点有机物挥发后与空气中的氧反应生成水和二氧化碳，形成暂时缺氧状况，使部分有机物同氯化氢(HCl)反应，生成PCDD，焚烧技术标准中是根据一氧化碳浓度判断供氧不足状况的。 2.2.2.从头合成：在低温(250～350℃)条件下大分子碳(残碳)与飞灰基质中的有机或无机氯生成PCDD，残碳氧化时，有65%～75%转变为一氧化碳，约1%转为氯苯转变为PCDD，飞灰中碳的气化率越高，PCDD的生成量也越大。 2.2.3.前驱物合成：不完全燃烧及飞灰表面的不均匀催化反应可形成多种有机气相前驱物，如多氯苯酚和二苯醚，再由这些前驱物生成PCDD，高温燃烧产生含铝硅酸盐的原始飞灰中含有不挥发过渡金属和残碳，飞灰颗粒形成了大的吸附表面，飞灰颗粒在出炉膛冷却的同时，颗粒表面上的不完全燃烧产物之间，不完全燃烧产物与其它前驱物之间发生多种表面反应，另一方面与不挥发金属及其盐发生多种缩合反应，生成表面活性氯化物，再经过多种复杂的有机反应生成吸附在飞灰颗粒表面上的PCDD，焚烧垃圾温度为750℃且氧过剩时最易生成不完全燃烧物。 具体哪一种机理起主导作用取决于炉型、工作状态和燃烧条件，生成PCDD的前提可以概括为：存在有机或无机氯，存在氧，存在过渡金属阳离子作为催化剂。
我离出事地点500迈，肠胃也有点不舒服。在想是因为水源，还是中午的重庆火锅吃的太辣了，或者both
早就报了，radio 电视到处都是
我还是那句话，不用理那些 从疫情疫苗到政治经济军事再到化工都能发表一套一套意见的“人士“。
怎么可能是切尔诺贝利呢，要是这样还费劲搞什么核武，氯乙烯是最基本便宜的化工原料，哪个国家都可以搞，哪个国家也都有，互相炸炸就都玩完了呗
Mark, Thanks
OK，多谢
那么回到我的问题，氯乙烯燃烧到底是完全不产生二噁英呢还是只是没有PVC燃烧那么严重？
是的，是进入人体重要的来源之一
你不记得它？这版上有个几个牛ID，什么方面的知识都比专家还专家，政治经济军事历史生物化学医疗防疫。。。比ChatGPT厉害多了～！
"解决不了问题就装作问题不存在" 基本就是这么回事
这么说吧 燃烧 产生dioxins 需要两个条件，最少分子里面有十二个碳原子，而且有铜作为催化剂。 所谓的垃圾焚烧有可能产生dioxins,就是因为垃圾里面混有金属铜 和聚氯乙烯。
你说的是物理性质，石墨和钻石确实物理性质很不同，但是化学性质一样。充分燃烧生成二氧化碳，不充分燃烧是一氧化碳。
马克
现在这个是微博热搜，必须紧跟风向呀，大家懂的
我要笑死了。你先去查查一战的时候用了多少phosgene。这是整个战争phosgene导致的death，又不是一次性导致的。
只是报道脱轨起火，并没有告诉你燃烧了的危害。
是的。
看看美国人什么塑料饭盒都放微波炉转，他们应该是真的不在乎化学物质危害
可以人工降雨催一催吗
人家上面化学专业的说燃烧了反倒分解了没害了。到底谁说的是对的？
Vinyl Chloride Monomer: Combustion products include HC1 (27000 ppm, 盐酸) , CO2, CO, phosgene (光气，40 ppm, 如果按下面这个NIH网站的部分的话，50 ppm的光气可以致命，40 ppm的光气很危险了。但是这种完全敞开空间消散的40 ppm和短距离接触的是否可以等价？), and VCM trace (痕量的Vinyl Chloride残留。虽然是痕量，这么多里面留下的痕量影响如何难以判断，但是从分析化学角度出发，痕量可能只有忽略。). (1971年的分析) (Combustion Products from Vinyl Chloride Monomer: American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal: Vol 32, No 3 (tandfonline.com))
Phosgene at concentrations of 3-5 ppm causes irritation of the eyes and throat with coughing; exposure at 25 ppm for 30-60 min is dangerous; and brief exposure at 50 ppm may be rapidly fatal (Henderson and Haggard, 1943; Hygienic Guide Series, 1968; Patty, 1963; Sax, 1968). (PHOSGENE - Emergency and Continuous Exposure Limits for Selected Airborne Contaminants - NCBI Bookshelf (nih.gov))
Fire Hazard Special Hazards of Combustion Products: Forms highly toxic combustion products such as hydrogen chloride, phosgene, and carbon monoxide.
Behavior in Fire: Container may explode in fire. Gas is heavier than air and may travel considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. (USCG, 1999)
(NOAA 的网站内容.) 也许说明，未燃烧时，VCM其本身也可能已经一部分进入空气。其比空气重，无色有毒。从这个判断，确实燃烧也许是两害相权取其轻的办法。
专业。mark一下
我再多句嘴：从个人角度，我认为，其实哪怕痕量都是不敢说没有害处的，只不过目前科技与生物水平无法（或者不愿）进行彻底分析而已。燃烧产生40ppm的光气，未燃烧时也可能已经有部分进入空气（比空气重，可以近地蔓延）。完全无害是不像的。有害的结论却又是难以产生的。EPA之类机构很多时候是干不来啥的。个人意见而已。需要研究里面有专门涉及到这个的才好说得准确。
你如何看待1971年那个研究说产生40 ppm光气呢？
没错，因为不燃烧的话它本身可以近地蔓延，渗漏。但是要说危害，我个人觉得肯定会有危害。至于危害是否达到一定程度从而被认定，这个里面一是需要有明显证据，二是个人感觉很多时候很多机构是大事化小小事化了的态度。
这搬家对大部分人来说是比较困难的。华人上还是太理想了
一个你，一个athen啥，两个完全放屁一般洗地的帖子被顶到上面，呵呵
言之凿凿"靠燃烧是怎么也合成不出来二恶英的"
看看美国化学学会怎么报道这个事件： While vinyl chloride itself is a carcinogen, the burning of the chemical, which releases hydrogen chloride and phosgene, can be immediately lethal. Phosgene, a highly toxic, colorless gas with a strong odor, was notoriously used as a weapon during World War I. https://cen.acs.org/safety/Safety-questions-remain-Ohio-train/101/i6
看看正经的论文怎么讨论氯乙烯不能产生二噁英 Combustion of chloroethene can form polychlorinated dibenzodioxins, as chlorine is a key factor in their formation. The formation of PCDDs and PCDFs occurs in two temperature windows during combustion processes, and the role of chlorine in dioxin formation has been studied extensively.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0957582000708445 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3155/1047-3289.61.5.511
光气合成是个可逆反应,在200摄氏度就分解回一氧化碳和氯气了, 40ppm(40mg/L)所产生的氯气是很微量的,在开放地带会很快散发. 而且这篇文章是实验室论文, 化工的实验室实验, 小试,中试和最终放大的结果是有很大的区别的. 在海量有机溶剂泄漏的情况下, 如果是直链碳化合物, 就地充分焚烧是最好的处理办法. 如果化学溶剂中含有苯的衍生化合物, 那么处理方法又完全不同, 那才是真正的disaster. 真正让人感到不舒服的其实是空气中大量的盐酸, 高浓度的酸雾是很呛的算是有毒气体, 而且对皮肤的腐蚀性很强.
前面不有个化工的mm说是产生光气，但光气不稳定遇水分解。所以跟之前新闻说挖沟来烧是不是对上了