其实trump也就是提出了一个想法，被假媒体污蔑了。"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute.One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? ”So it'd be interesting to check that." Pointing to his head, Mr Trump went on: "I'm not a doctor. But I'm, like, a person that has a good you-know-what."
隔壁有人用雾化HCQ，如果能直达病毒感染灶的化，效果应该更好，副作用更小。和有医生用雾化激素来减小副作用，增加疗效是一样的道理。 实际上，可以加一个鼻喷治疗过敏的激素药，喷的时候同时吸气，等会我把药名找出来。用HCQ和激素来抑制免疫炎症，减少炎症对身体的损伤，就是给机体buy时间消灭病毒。多数医生都是使用标准治疗程序，只有少数医生才会思考药物机理，探索新的有效疗法。 PT8964 发表于 8/1/2020 7:08:00 AM
人体是复杂的，现代治疗也是复杂多样的。医生学了很多东西，但具体到某种药，尤其是这药对一个新病症，绝大多数医生也就是知道个皮毛。就跟Fauci告诉大家带口罩没有用一样，不是一个医生或专家就一定有对的观点。医生错误观点多了，所以大的决定我都建议是要问几个医生，2nd opinion。 我原来对HCQ持怀疑态度，但是经过这次讨论，已及更多的思考，我认为HCQ是有效的，但是因为新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用。HCQ确实可以促进zinc的吸收，这是在研究癌症时发现的。简单讲就是用HCQ,Zinc，阿司匹林，Vc，如果可能，再用点鼻喷的激素Budesonide。有医生使用雾化Budesonide雾化取得良好效果。我们一般人只好用鼻子喷的，同时吸气。 Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
人体是复杂的，现代治疗也是复杂多样的。医生学了很多东西，但具体到某种药，尤其是这药对一个新病症，绝大多数医生也就是知道个皮毛。就跟Fauci告诉大家带口罩没有用一样，不是一个医生或专家就一定有对的观点。医生错误观点多了，所以大的决定我都建议是要问几个医生，2nd opinion。 我原来对HCQ持怀疑态度，但是经过这次讨论，已及更多的思考，我认为HCQ是有效的，但是因为新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用。HCQ确实可以促进zinc的吸收，这是在研究癌症时发现的。简单讲就是用HCQ,Zinc，阿司匹林，Vc，如果可能，再用点鼻喷的激素Budesonide。有医生使用雾化Budesonide雾化取得良好效果。我们一般人只好用鼻子喷的，同时吸气。 Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43] PT8964 发表于 2020-08-01 17:01
你知道为什么会发炎吗？你知道免疫与炎症的关系吗？你读的懂下面的吗？ Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
临床上，需要证明的是一个药有效，而不是一个药无效～ 所以临床试验如果成功呢是说有significant difference from control arm，失败的话呢，是说there is not sufficient evidence to say it is significant different... 这个论坛的人都是来美国这么多年的，药不是我信和我不信，而是用数据说话的
你知道为什么会发炎吗？你知道免疫与炎症的关系吗？你读的懂下面的吗？ Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43] PT8964 发表于 2020-08-01 17:12
HCQ当然与激素corticosteroid不相等，但是在要达到治疗SARS的目的是一样的，控制过激炎症。但是他们通过不同机理抑制炎症。当然每种药物也像任何药物一样也都有其他的作用。HCQ抑制病毒复制也只是假说，现在说它不能抑制病毒的一种假说是人的被侵染细胞没有特定的酶。而在培养的细胞里有这种酶。也就是说在培养的细胞有效，但在人体上无效，不能抑制病毒。 Budesonide is a steroid that reduces inflammation in the body. Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40] HCQ治疗疟疾用的另外机理。要说一知半解，没有人对每种药都有深入的了解，尤其是分子机理有多种，并且不断演化的药物。过去知道的也许随时间会过时
那个MD到底有没有看过Henry Ford 的文章，还是人云亦云？人家study investigators和journal reviewers得多傻才能留个imbalanced steroid use的大毛病让人批？没看到人家做了multivariate Cox，还做了propensity score matching. 1:1 matched 的190 pairs of subjects had exactly the same percentage of steroid use. After matching, they did Cox on the matched and the hazard ratio was still significant , indicating 51% less risk of in-hospital mortality in the HCQ subjects. 建议MD们补补课，别那么自以为是
大妈们估计很多看不明白两个的区别
去年不是有个大研究说阿司匹林有副作用么
这个是基本常识，我相信大部分人都懂。 有些人就是故意装糊涂
我看到最多反口罩的话就是，目前没有证据证明它有效。
有证据了
不一定， stats拿F的人可能真不懂
来个链接 或者该搜啥，真心烦各种口罩无用论。
没有证据
点赞，但是大妈们会问不能证明无效为什么不能用。
几个月前就听说了 HCQ一定要早用，控制好剂量，一定要加上Zinc一起用，然后在这个几个月，我们看到的实验都是
1.用在重症住院病人身上，然后宣布无效 2.超剂量使用，然后宣布毒性大 3.不结合Zinc一起用，然后宣布无效或效果忽略不计
人民的希望双盲实验结果只是缩短了大概两天的住院时间，然后媒体和Fauci就大肆吹捧，丝毫不提此药对肝肾的损害非常大
又学到一个，我最近也买了一瓶阿斯匹林
生活中区别不大，因为不可能永远反复实验
如果我说吃果丹皮不能变漂亮，那也可以说不对，应该科学的说，目前没有证据证明吃果丹皮可以变漂亮 但问题就是，没有证据，谁还会不停一遍遍吃果丹皮啊，你肯定也会跟你朋友说，没用别吃了，吃果丹皮也不能变漂亮，还是整容去吧
这个病毒还比较新，现在还有很多人做各种实验，但是如果一直找不到证据，肯定慢慢的大家就不做了
你说的太有道理了. 一下子明白了
任何药长期食用都对肝脏有损害的，同时服用保肝药就可以了，你去狗一下肺结核的病人是怎么治疗的？（抗结核药需要长期服用，在服用抗结核的药的同时吃保肝药). 而且这个病毒的致死率相对来说比较高，医生在用药的时候，是会权衡利弊的-死亡和的肝损伤。
HCQ是稳定剂 ZINC才是真正消除病毒的
专业！
你说的我都很同意，特别是故意加大剂量这一块。比尔盖茨基金会合作的组织在英国给病人是2400mg一天，在巴西给病人是1600mg一天。但正常人可接受的最佳剂量是400mg一天。我相信这些医生不会不知道。毕竟是65年的老药，不是新药。故意给那么大剂量不是害人吗？ 吃死人了马上说这个药不好，但不告诉大众他们多给了比正常多了多少倍剂量的药
系统提示：若遇到视频无法播放请点击下方链接
https://www.youtube.com/embed/jCRGYtMgn4c 他的分析很有意思
强烈质疑PT8964的这个楼主 我觉得他要么是最近才关注氯喹 要么就是不懂瞎说
包括隔壁楼里他也说氯喹和激素一样的原理是免疫调节 这是以讹传讹
PT8964 发表于 2020-07-31 22:31 瞎说瞎说 氯喹用于新冠是初期遏制病毒复制 不是免疫调节
红斑狼疮患者吃氯喹要几周之后才能开始有免疫调节的效果。。。
不要传谣了
你的这几行字都是misinformation
首先
氯喹是有一定的抗血栓的作用的，没有其他专门抗血栓的药物那么有效。但是也不能说这是HCQ效果不好的原因。当初杀生丸推荐氯喹的时候也是说可能这个小的抗血栓的作用能让氯喹更有效。你这是乱讲。
第二
激素降低免疫反应 和HCQ理论上治疗新冠的原理是完全不一样的！这就是为什么说激素用于重症患者，而HCQ大家看好的是用于轻症。因为氯喹的理论作用是用于抑制病毒复制，而不是免疫调节。HCQ对于风湿免疫病人的作用需要长期服用几周甚至几个月后才能看到疗效。HCQ的免疫调节功能是很微妙的。怎么可能和激素是一个道理？？
你的短短四行话都是misinformation 建议你改掉 否则会给广大网友造成非常不好的影响！
再重申 氯喹抗血栓！！！！ 氯喹和激素完全是两个道理！！
请问您是临床医学专业吗？
莫不是把sepsis 跟 scurvy 搞混了吧？ vc 防止的是scurvy，跟sepsis没有关系 以及sepsis 是细菌进入血液，冠状病毒是病毒。。。 当然如果您说的是post viral infection那当我没说 不过vc 也不是您这么用的吧。。
顺便说，激素跟hcq 不同。一个是免疫抑制另外一个是modulator。。。mechanism不同
唉算了。大家随意吧
你不要乱说了
氯喹和激素的原理在新冠上是根本不一样的 不要再传播misinformation了好么
你提到的是英国发现目前各国都在trial的干扰素雾化
激素 氯喹 干扰素 都是不同的原理 你不懂就不要乱讲
第一 锌这个目前还没有一个足够支持的理论 很多人当初都质疑是不是卖锌的药的药商把锌和氯喹捆绑的。因为锌是可以不开处方得到的。
第二 实际上WHOtrial停止后 加拿大 西班牙都在做trail 并不是你说的看到的试验都没用的情况
你不会认为西班牙也被收买了吧
顺便说，激素跟hcq 不同。一个是免疫抑制另外一个是modulator。。。mechanism不同”
相信科学，相信专业人士。不信谣不传谣
氯喹最初用于疟疾，在80余年的不断研究发展中，它在皮肤病、免疫学、风湿病及严重传染性疾病等方面均有获益。研究发现，氯喹和羟氯喹已被证明具有免疫调节作用，目前已在风湿病、不同类型红斑狼疮和皮肤病的治疗中确立了作用。最近，氯喹也被发现具有代谢、心血管、抗血栓和抗肿瘤等作用（表 2）。
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7225120/
希望你能修改你的楼 血栓和HCQ效果不好没有任何关系。
另外SARS并没有用奎宁。氯喹对于SARS的可能效果是SARS多年后在实验室做出来的。
处方药需要处方是有原因的！ 不要self medicate! 不要self medicate!
相信您自己的医生
我原来对HCQ持怀疑态度，但是经过这次讨论，已及更多的思考，我认为HCQ是有效的，但是因为新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用。HCQ确实可以促进zinc的吸收，这是在研究癌症时发现的。简单讲就是用HCQ,Zinc，阿司匹林，Vc，如果可能，再用点鼻喷的激素Budesonide。有医生使用雾化Budesonide雾化取得良好效果。我们一般人只好用鼻子喷的，同时吸气。
Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40] Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoin biocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zinc ionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
你已经在各个主题里面显示出了各种天马行空的猜想 能不能不要再误导别人了
一会说HCQ是降低免疫和激素一样 一会说HCQ是治疗炎症的
牛头不对马嘴！
你知道为什么会发炎吗？你知道免疫与炎症的关系吗？你读的懂下面的吗？ Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40] Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoin biocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zinc ionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
你动一动手指搜到一段英文就贴出来 这多简单啊
你今天一早上说HCQ和激素是一样的原理 这么瞠目结舌的误解被多少个MM反驳了
现在还继续宣传你的一知半解
我声明我也不是专业的 但是你这样没有专业知识到处瞎说是不对的！我就是要跟着防止其他MM以为你是专业人士。因为你能说出HCQ=激素效果的话，就地地道道证明了你毫无医药知识。
为什么大家都在讨论轻症用氯喹，那是遏制病毒复制。 讨论的最多的儿童炎症风暴用的是阿司匹林。
谢谢！
HCQ当然与激素corticosteroid不相等，但是在要达到治疗SARS的目的是一样的，控制过激炎症。但是他们通过不同机理抑制炎症。当然每种药物也像任何药物一样也都有其他的作用。HCQ抑制病毒复制也只是假说，现在说它不能抑制病毒的一种假说是人的被侵染细胞没有特定的酶。而在培养的细胞里有这种酶。也就是说在培养的细胞有效，但在人体上无效，不能抑制病毒。
Budesonide is a steroid that reduces inflammation in the body. Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40] HCQ治疗疟疾用的另外机理。要说一知半解，没有人对每种药都有深入的了解，尤其是分子机理有多种，并且不断演化的药物。过去知道的也许随时间会过时
我觉得是有人要么故意混为一谈，要么就真的是完全不懂。
fauci不是神，他说的话就跟大家发paper一样，你的数据多少你就能说多少，可以speculate，但是不能拿些来作为证据。
找了半天pubmed，没看到zinc可以阻碍病毒复制。
有知道的甩个link，或者关键词吧，谢谢
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC353050/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21079686/
两张图告诉你氯喹有没有用 https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.html?topicid=2568564&fid=398
【新鲜出炉】NYC study发现氯喹显著降低死亡率 跟踪6493个NYC的住院病人，发现氯喹显著降低死亡率： https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.html?topicid=2569465&fid=398
一篇说它无效的文章撤稿了，为什么有人要作假呢？ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext
建议MD们补补课，别那么自以为是
锌是如何阻止病毒复制的？
第一篇文章是小儿科的。
第二篇文是in vitro。
”Total zinc concentrations of human cells are 200-300 μM“
这个浓度远高于第二篇文章中的浓度。如果真是这样，RNA病毒全都应该没作用。
系统提示：若遇到视频无法播放请点击下方链接
https://www.youtube.com/embed/RyYSpNkZWq0
说这个可能会被踩 - 我不太认同hcq的预防病毒感染的功效。。 如果你只相信闫女士那当我没说。。