回复 1楼Littleman18的帖子 人体是复杂的，现代治疗也是复杂多样的。医生学了很多东西，但具体到某种药，尤其是这药对一个新病症，绝大多数医生也就是知道个皮毛。就跟Fauci告诉大家带口罩没有用一样，不是一个医生或专家就一定有对的观点。医生错误观点多了，所以大的决定我都建议是要问几个医生，2nd opinion。 我原来对HCQ持怀疑态度，但是经过这次讨论，已及更多的思考，我认为HCQ是有效的，但是因为新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用。简单讲就是用HCQ,Zinc，阿司匹林，Vc，如果可能，再用点鼻喷的激素Budesonide Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
读的懂吧？ Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
读的懂吧？ Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43] PT8964 发表于 2020-08-01 17:08
回复 1楼Littleman18的帖子 人体是复杂的，现代治疗也是复杂多样的。医生学了很多东西，但具体到某种药，尤其是这药对一个新病症，绝大多数医生也就是知道个皮毛。就跟Fauci告诉大家带口罩没有用一样，不是一个医生或专家就一定有对的观点。医生错误观点多了，所以大的决定我都建议是要问几个医生，2nd opinion。 我原来对HCQ持怀疑态度，但是经过这次讨论，已及更多的思考，我认为HCQ是有效的，但是因为新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用。简单讲就是用HCQ,Zinc，阿司匹林，Vc，如果可能，再用点鼻喷的激素Budesonide Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40]Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoinbiocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zincionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43] PT8964 发表于 2020-08-01 16:53
被烧死的是布鲁诺 烧死在鲜花广场。。。。
哥白尼活得好好的。。。。
我想知道踩我这个回复的是有什么其他双盲实验的结果想po出来么？ 否则有什么好踩的？
楼里回复的是加zinc，有相关的权威study吗？
应该是美国的，这个药一直可以开，并不像有些人说的被ban了，至少在德州没有。这儿有篇采访又说是250个人治好了
“I have successfully treated over 250 COVID patients with HCQ, zpack and zinc. No deaths. All these double blinded studies sponsored by big Phama is fake science,” Immanuel posted on July 17, referring to Big Pharma.
所以到底是250还是350，搞不清楚。但是这个医生的credibility是可疑的，还因为malpractice从路易斯安那跑到了德州。出处https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/07/31/full-interview-houston-doctor-in-viral-video-touting-hydroxychloroquine-as-virus-cure-doubles-down-on-claims/
你要看什么剂量啊 氯喹这个药是非常非常注重剂量的
这么说 氯喹是为抗疟疾开发出来的
预防和治疗的剂量差了很多很多倍 真的治疗的时候 你吃少了是养抗药性 吃多了人要受不住的 必须按照剂量吃 这个剂量甚至要考虑到体重的
瞎说瞎说 氯喹用于新冠是初期遏制病毒复制 不是免疫调节
红斑狼疮患者吃氯喹要几周之后才能开始有免疫调节的效果。。。
不要传谣了
啥玩意新冠独有？
血栓抑制是common不能更common的东西。。。有啥独有= =
估计很多人自己日常吃的感冒药的医药成分的复杂拉丁英语都不会拼。。。（反正我不会）
一转身就成了医学专家对人家医生指手画脚的。。。
估计很多人自己日常吃的感冒药的医药成分的复杂拉丁英语都不会拼。。。（反正我不会）
一转身就成了医学专家对人家医生指手画脚的。。
新楼占一坑
你这是以讹传讹 氯喹对SARS可能有效是SARS早就没有病人之后在实验室试验发现的
03年SARS的时候根本没有注意到氯喹 当时是用激素
非洲预防疟疾的人什么长期吃 这是错误的 预防疟疾对于游客是去之前提前两周每周吃两片 当地人是极微量加在饮食中 有风险的时候比如身边人出现了再去吃药
自身免疫疾病的人才是长期服用羟氯喹 但是原理和剂量和新冠不同 另外自身免疫疾病的人是免疫力过于活跃需要抑制 普通人这么吃会造成免疫力低下
求求你们不要以讹传讹了 你短短两行字全都是misinformation
NIH 做了一个双盲HCQ trials, 500 人的，做到75% 的时候，发现没有benefit, 也没有harm。 https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-halts-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine
比较理智的文章。
等着反智人拍砖。
Inpatient 没用用早就是公认的了。 大家问的是outpatient 加zinc
不奇怪
这些大妈无可救药。
re 这个。
说这个药有效或无效的，都是业内人士。楼主的逻辑是因为楼主是业内的，所以楼主提供的信息就是正确的，而其他其他业内的结论就是错的。
作为业外的我，对你们这些自相矛盾的结论不予评论，但我可以评论一下楼主语言里体现出来的品：那是相当的low.
这是hospitalized patient, 现在就没有早期使用并且加锌的临床
就看到一句“老婆是东北的，所以说话比较通俗，甚至粗俗，见谅吧”，东北姑娘以后嫁人一定要睁大眼，找个素质高的男人，不然连自己说话粗俗都能怪到老婆身上。
楼主也挺不容易的，要不要说说为啥被封啊？这么个呕心沥血的好医生还被封，有没有天理了
谢谢回复。 比如200mg 每日二次， 配合Zinc 连续五天呢？ 查了下和风湿关节炎患者初始剂量一致， 是慢性长期服用剂量200mg的二倍。 这里说常规剂量。
成人用法与用量 ◆常规剂量
·类风湿关节炎、慢性关节炎、红斑狼疮、皮肤病
1.口服给药初始剂量为一日400mg，分次服用。当疗效不再进一步改善时，剂量可减至一日200mg进行维持治疗；如治疗反应有所减弱，维持剂量应增至一日400mg。应使用本药的最低有效剂量，不应超过一日6.5mg/kg（根据理想体重计算）或一日400mg。
◆肾功能不全时剂量
严重肾功能损害者应估测本药的血浆水平，并据此调整剂量。
◆肝功能不全时剂量
严重肝功能损害者应估测本药的血浆水平，并据此调整剂量。
◆老年人剂量
老年人无需调整剂量。
这位层主看来是专业人士，赞一个👍!!
红斑狼疮患者都是要看医生 听医生指导的调整的
你这样看网上信息吃药谈剂量非常不恰当
我不会给出任何剂量建议
谢谢。 刚看到另外一个帖子， 居然有人同时问相同的问题 😓 看来是普通人都会有疑惑。
👍👍👍大赞
对于疟疾用量非常苛刻
因为你剂量低了是养疟原虫抗药性 高了你身体受不了
对于红斑狼疮的剂量你可以直接去找 要考虑体重的
有些东西不是说少吃一点就没事 药要按照剂量吃 你多吃少吃都不好 这不是维生素
👍 谢谢懂了。 家有二老， 如果有事情一定去看医生的， 就想心里有个数。
医生心里有底， 我们心颤。
哈哈哈
外行不懂，同意这个。
不懂就问，美国有专门做临床试验的医生吗？本来以为医生主业是看病人，连带做点儿临床试验
这是你读了这么长的帖子的结论？。。。捂脸笑
现在治疗手法已经突飞猛进了 如果不是重灾区 说一下老人的年龄情况 admit to hosipital还是挺及时的
现在趁着夏天多开车出去找安全的地方走一走 不少老年人窝在家里太久了 缺阳光对身体免疫力也不好的
bless!
。。。。。。
这样的回复。。。
借用隔壁帖子说
戾气太重
没有拦你啊，我拦楼主呢，瞎说啥大实话找骂呢，双手双脚赞同你们不戴口罩吃药预防呢，当然怀揣大总统的头像语录之类那就说不定效果加倍呢
人体是复杂的，现代治疗也是复杂多样的。医生学了很多东西，但具体到某种药，尤其是这药对一个新病症，绝大多数医生也就是知道个皮毛。就跟Fauci告诉大家带口罩没有用一样，不是一个医生或专家就一定有对的观点。医生错误观点多了，所以大的决定我都建议是要问几个医生，2nd opinion。
我原来对HCQ持怀疑态度，但是经过这次讨论，已及更多的思考，我认为HCQ是有效的，但是因为新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用。简单讲就是用HCQ,Zinc，阿司匹林，Vc，如果可能，再用点鼻喷的激素Budesonide
Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40] Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoin biocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zinc ionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
你先发个吧
。。。你在隔壁楼里还说HCQ是治疗发炎的呢= = 简直牛头不对马嘴
读的懂吧？
Mechanism of action Hydroxychloroquine increases[39] lysosomal pH in antigen-presenting cells.[3] In inflammatory conditions, it blocks toll-like receptors on plasmacytoid dendritic cells (PDCs).[40] Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR 9), which recognizes DNA-containing immune complexes, leads to the production of interferon and causes the dendritic cells to mature and present antigen to T cells. Hydroxychloroquine, by decreasing TLR signaling, reduces the activation of dendritic cells and the inflammatory process.[medical citation needed] In 2003, a novel mechanism was described wherein hydroxychloroquine inhibits stimulation of the toll-like receptor (TLR) 9 family receptors. TLRs are cellular receptors for microbial products that induce inflammatory responses through activation of the innate immune system.[41] As with other quinoline antimalarial drugs, the antimalarial mechanism of action of quinine has not been fully resolved. The most accepted model is based on hydrochloroquinine and involves the inhibition of hemozoin biocrystallization, which facilitates the aggregation of cytotoxic heme. Free cytotoxic heme accumulates in the parasites, causing death.[42] Hydroxychloroquine increases the risk of low blood sugar through several mechanisms. These include decreased clearance of the hormone insulin from the blood, increased insulin sensitivity, and increased release of insulin from the pancreas.[4] Hydroxychloroquine has been suggested to be a zinc ionophore, and may derive an anti-cancer action from increasing intracellular zinc uptake.[43]
呵呵呵 你去wiki上面直接copy pause一段话 装什么专家呢
你早上还说HCQ和激素一个作用 orz...
～～～
多少MM反驳你了 如果我是你 我会虚心接受别人的意见 不要再天马行空的想象了
另外 你说的“新冠的特殊性，需要与其他几种药联合使用”
事实上临床上几种药物联合使用的鸡尾酒模式是再寻常不过的了
什么“新冠的特殊性= = ”
哦几个小时前还有说新冠引起血栓 所以是氯喹不好的原因。明明大家对氯喹寄予希望的原因就是它是多面手，体外试验证实可以遏制病毒复制，并且有抗血栓的效果。你这都不知道，只看wiki就来指点江山了...
PS：我也不是专家 但是我看不下去有些人装专家的样子
是的 我也反对说“反智”
顶多说 听风就是雨吧 其实大家都有这种趋势的
两张图告诉你氯喹有没有用 https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.html?topicid=2568564&fid=398
【新鲜出炉】NYC study发现氯喹显著降低死亡率 跟踪6493个NYC的住院病人，发现氯喹显著降低死亡率： https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.html?topicid=2569465&fid=398
一篇说它无效的文章撤稿了 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext
暗搓搓点踩的。。。这回复都点踩 是什么心态？？
我倒不觉得华人mean的风气和Trump有啥关系。。。
这里不一直这样么。。。普通长相被吹成天仙 而真的天仙长相收获一堆砖头。。。。
哈哈哈，这个帖子搞笑~
不得不同意
哎 粉们是没有逻辑的 就等自然选择吧
哎 没办法
事实就这样 盲的永远是盲的 不是没有人科普 是根本就是鸵鸟
不要这么说 我觉得其实很多人 包括我自己 也不愿意看到说HCQ无效的结论
大家都非常非常希望看到有效的结论
人性如此啊
很多MM非常失望我是理解的
其实没那么糟糕 现在只是没有conclusive的结论 我相信很快就会有更加conclusive的结论的
我一直觉得这个药还是会有一点作用的 只不过不是特效药罢了
因为lz的帖子是害人的 我才“戾气”重
行啊 如果我带任务发帖就死全家啊；你们也来发一个誓啊。。。。。。
同感！
如果这病容易治就会有特效药了。但是没有就是没有，不能自己骗自己。不然止步不前就会错过真正有效的疗法。
哎 谢谢
人么 有时候就是做不到放弃幻想的 还有几个trial在run 我就总希望能听到好消息
这个病不可能短期就有特效药 有一些药能够降低一定死亡率 重症率就已经很不错了 流感其实也没有特效药 几种药也只是减轻症状 降低重症率 联合哪怕只有50%有效率的疫苗，人类已经不害怕流感了
这里大部分人也不是说这个药就一定有效，但是有效与否至少要给一个科学的结论，要允许人们去验证 现在已经完成的几个实验没有一个实验是联合zinc一起进行的，而有这个的几个实验run到关键时刻就被柳叶刀的一篇造假论文叫停了。造假论文被质疑后可以被撤回，但是实验被停了就很难再启动了 讨论问题的焦点根本就不是这个药是否有效，因为那不是普通人能验证的问题。而是为什么这么多的“巧合”就不让人去验证这个药是否有效呢？
赞楼主！
谢谢科普。非常同意risk vs benefit 的介绍。
你拦楼主需要骂反对楼主的人反智疯狂的动物？你怀里揣了啥让你这么自以为是？你赞不赞同有人在乎吗？要不你也揣上Google冒充一会专家呗？！
这一段说得太好了。很多人反对那些所谓的专家并不是说这个药是神药，马上就去买来吃。作为外行，我们希望看到双方充分展示自己的论点论据。一方silence另一方很容易让人产生阴谋论的想法。
我实际上还是不理解为什么锌这么被推崇。也只是体外实验的一个观点啊。还不如氯喹自己就做出来对SARS的体外实验那么好的数据。
我觉得这个可能是美国人很喜欢。。。。欧洲没怎么听到有人提锌也没人抢也没断货。所以我对锌是画了一个问号的。只是个人观点。
这个我赞同 大家需要听到更多的心平气和讲道理的科学家的声音
我相信不是没有 而是这样的科学家不吸睛 没有媒体愿意去采访去报道
赞楼主，写的好，有理有据。
建议楼主及其他在这个楼里反对HCQ疗法的医生也实名出来做个教育视频，和这个视频里的医生们辩论一下。