that's ur case. as for ur kid, u won't know before u try it. And after u try it, maybe it's gonna be lateso, why assume he/she can and take the risk at all?
My point is that you know it's not abuse or things like that, because you can tell from other things your parents have done to you. Of course at that time you might hope your parents treat you in a more democratic way, but that's a not permanent effect.
哦？那怎么解释有些刻意虐待孩子的父母？ my point is“父母”这个身份没那么宇宙通行证，对自己要求严点有啥不好
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:45:19编辑过] It depends on whether you are talking about the "norm" or the "exception". I believe all of us here on the board belong to the former category. And for those exceptions, there is no use talking about "对自己要求严点" anyways. [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:55:35编辑过]
My point is that you know it's not abuse or things like that, because you can tell from other things your parents have done to you. Of course at that time you might hope your parents treat you in a more democratic way, but that's a not permanent effect.
well, for me, some of them are semi-permanent and that's an example of how different kids can be and, let's pls focus on how to treat the kids better, not how the kids will grow out of parenting concord mm在隔壁号哭帖里有很多好的经验谈
well, for me, some of them are semi-permanent and that's an example of how different kids can be and, let's pls focus on how to treat the kids better, not how the kids will grow out of parenting concord mm在隔壁号哭帖里有很多好的经验谈
Last post regarding this conversation: all I am saying is that parents may know about what is best for kids and how to treat them well, much more than one thinks. Occasionally things can deviate from the plan, but it does not necessarily mean they don't know or haven't tried and how harmful that is to kids. And I don't disagree with you that parents should say sorry, I am just pointint out that even if they don't literally say that word, they could express their emotions via other means esp. for chinese who are used to be reserved wrt expressing their feelings. And kids can tell.
It depends on whether you are talking about the "norm" or the "exception". I believe all of us here on the board belong to the former category. And for those exceptions, there is no use talking about "对自己要求严点" anyways. 在刻意虐待，和super好父母之间，有很多中间态的可能 我的意思是“父母”这个头衔，既不justify任何权力、也不justify很多能力，所以对自己要求严点没坏处
Last post regarding this conversation: all I am saying is that parents may know about what is best for kids and how to treat them well, much more than one thinks. Occasionally things can deviate from the plan, but it does not necessarily mean they don't know or haven't tried and how harmful that is to kids.
i acknowledged ur point and I proposed that in that case the parents apologize and explain more to the kid after the emotion is gone
呵呵～～mm， like i have explained, for 2, 3 year old kids, they would simply prefer a candy, not an apology~~ hehe, that's right. Lollipop or icecream will do wonder to my daughter.
Last post regarding this conversation: all I am saying is that parents may know about what is best for kids and how to treat them well, much more than one thinks. Occasionally things can deviate from the plan, but it does not necessarily mean they don't know or haven't tried and how harmful that is to kids. And I don't disagree with you that parents should say sorry, I am just pointint out that even if they don't literally say that word, they could express their emotions via other means esp. for chinese who are used to be reserved wrt expressing their feelings. And kids can tell. yes. That's true. the only possible problem is that those kids at a higher chance will grow into the same kind of witholding persons as their parents taught them. if that's what the parents want and the kids feel good about it, that's their choice.
yes. That's true. the only possible problem is that those kids at a higher chance will grow into the same kind of witholding persons as their parents taught them. if that's what the parents want and the kids feel good about it, that's their choice.
It seems I (along with some friends I know) am a small probability event according to your theory. hehe [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:18:13编辑过]
It seems I (along with some friends I know) am a small probability event according to your theory. hehe after all, it's ur own choice how to raise ur own kid.
an apology and a candy are not muturally exclusive吧？why not？ 省得等看孩子懂事了再培养自己的道歉习惯
because they don't understand it. It does not mean you don't do it just because kids don't understand it. I think icylavender's point is that candy is more effective way of showing your regretness and love to a kid at this age.
Another example, my daughter learned to say sorry, after we told her many times. But you can tell she does not understand it at all: it seems to be sorry means same things as thank you or hi. Of course it's a good habit to have since young, but at this stage it's more of a manners training than her trully feeling sorry. [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:22:57编辑过]
呵呵～～mm， like i have explained, for 2, 3 year old kids, they would simply prefer a candy, not an apology~~ I have to disagree with it.
My 3rd child is 21 months now. He apologizes to his older sister and brother when he was 18 month old, when he accidentally ripped off their book pages.
He's able to do that because he learned from my other two kids to be polite to each other and say "sorry" or "thank you" when appropriate.
You can't underestimate the importance of "role modelling".
As parents, being a postive role model to our children is a crucial and essential part of parenting.
To a 2-3 year old, a sincere apology makes so much more sense than a piece of candy...
My 3rd child is 21 months now. He apologizes to his older sister and brother when he was 18 month old, when he accidentally ripped off their book pages.
He's able to do that because he learned from my other two kids to be polite to each other and say "sorry" or "thank you" when appropriate.
You can't underestimate the importance of "role modelling".
As parents, being a postive role model to our children is a crucial and essential part of parenting.
To a 2-3 year old, a sincere apology makes so much more sense than a piece of candy...
after all, it's ur own choice how to raise ur own kid. good that you acknowledge individuality in the process of raising the kid, which means there might not be a universal rule of what is the best/worst or what works/does not work for a kid. To be fair, that applies to my comments as well (if I am imposing somewhere). [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:32:55编辑过]
My 3rd child is 21 months now. He apologizes to his older sister and brother when he was 18 month old, when he accidentally ripped off their book pages.
He's able to do that because he learned from my other two kids to be polite to each other and say "sorry" or "thank you" when appropriate.
You can't underestimate the importance of "role modelling".
As parents, being a postive role model to our children is a crucial and essential part of parenting.
To a 2-3 year old, a sincere apology makes so much more sense than a piece of candy... I am not saying you should not cultivate that manner/habit, but at least to my daughter who is 4 now, she does not fully understand what sorry means. So when I say sorry to her, she may not understand it fully. Gifts/candies/cakes/icecreams are very direct means of telling her that I love her, in addition to saying "sorry".
that totally makes sense to me. we should do a panel survey and follow the opinion years later of those who become parents later. That would be interesting
I am not saying you should not cultivate that manner/habit, but at least to my daughter who is 4 now, she does not fully understand what sorry means. So when I say sorry to her, she may not understand it fully. Gifts/candies/cakes/icecreams are very direct means of telling her that I love her, in addition to saying "sorry". Does she not understand an apology, or do you think that she doesn't understand?
Have you or anyone had ever made a sincere apology to her before?
How did she react when someone bent down, looked into her eyes, and say "I'm sorry that I did.... I was angry because... I shouldn't have done that ... I love you and I'm sorry"? [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:33:54编辑过]
Does she not understand an apology, or do you think that she doesn't understand?
Have you or anyone had ever made an sincere apology to her?
How did she react when someone bent down, looked into her eyes, and say "I'm sorry that I did.... I was angry because... I shouldn't have done that ... I love you and I'm sorry"? Yes to all three questions above. Maybe my daughter is too immature. But one moment (not even one sec) after she says sorry (and very quickly), she goes away and play again. But I agree with you that it's a must to have good manners at early stage, which is what I am doing as well. But I just have some doubts on whether kids can pick up that deep. And to back up a bit, it's not everytime like that. Sometimes she does mean sorry, otherwise i really sound a incompetent mom (or my daughter has some learning issues.) [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:38:17编辑过]
Does she not understand an apology, or do you think that she doesn't understand?
Have you or anyone had ever made a sincere apology to her before?
How did she react when someone bent down, looked into her eyes, and say "I'm sorry that I did.... I was angry because... I shouldn't have done that ... I love you and I'm sorry"? [此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:33:54编辑过] 想到一个好笑的，有一次我正儿八经想和她道歉，you know, 就是蹲下来，慢慢的，充满感情的要说那些话，没想人家还没听完一句呢就扭头跑了，要么就是叉题说别的了，搞得我很自作多情的样子。
趁着女儿还小，还是多给她一些表达感情的机会吧，她长大了会终身受用的。 Good luck on keep trying! Same here when I try to express my feelings toward my parents.
Interestingly, my daughter seems to be more like American kids, very open. 又一次学校开母亲节party, 小朋友都要上台把自己做的手工送给妈妈，再说两句。结果我女儿是小朋友中说的最大声，最嘹亮的，"mommy, I love you", 完了还亲了我一下。那时真是觉得赢了你输了世界又如何。
所以我也是决定，在我可以说的时候，我天天说，使劲儿说，逮住机会就说。 Yes, I say that to my daughter a lot. Nowadays, my daughter catches up and says it more often. Almost every night before sleep, she would say I love you mommy and give me a big hug.
that's ur case.
as for ur kid, u won't know before u try it. And after u try it, maybe it's gonna be late
My point is that you know it's not abuse or things like that, because you can tell from other things your parents have done to you. Of course at that time you might hope your parents treat you in a more democratic way, but that's a not permanent effect.
哦？那怎么解释有些刻意虐待孩子的父母？
my point is“父母”这个身份没那么宇宙通行证，对自己要求严点有啥不好
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:45:19编辑过]
It depends on whether you are talking about the "norm" or the "exception". I believe all of us here on the board belong to the former category. And for those exceptions, there is no use talking about "对自己要求严点" anyways.
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:55:35编辑过]
第一次挨打以前都沒學會，所以第一次挨打之前也不會有恐懼
第一次挨打以後就學會了
所以如果家長以前沒打過，你所謂的恐懼和忐忑就永遠不會發生
當然，如果上學了，看見別的孩子挨打了，還是會學會的，那個另當別論了
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:50:39编辑过]
其实这些影响才是最麻烦的。。。
我以为你外甥看电视看来的呢～～
大人的电视都避开他看得
第一次挨打以前都沒學會，所以第一次挨打之前也不會有恐懼
第一次挨打以後就學會了
所以如果家長以前沒打過，你所謂的恐懼和忐忑就永遠不會發生
當然，如果上學了，看見別的孩子挨打了，還是會學會的，那個另當別論了
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:50:39编辑过]
以前沒挨過打的
恐嚇“我要打死你”就是一句空話，小孩不會因此害怕和忐忑，所以我認為，這種情況不是abuse
說明白了么。。。
除非他看到別人打了，聽了打人的故事，被人打過了，或者明白死是什麽意思了，這個時候，才開始理解。。。我們才討論，這句話是不是abuse
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:55:00编辑过]
就这4个选项，太少了，做父母哪有这么简单的事？
re this. I am actually looking for more options as well
My point is that you know it's not abuse or things like that, because you can tell from other things your parents have done to you. Of course at that time you might hope your parents treat you in a more democratic way, but that's a not permanent effect.
well, for me, some of them are semi-permanent
and that's an example of how different kids can be
and, let's pls focus on how to treat the kids better, not how the kids will grow out of parenting
concord mm在隔壁号哭帖里有很多好的经验谈
第一次挨打以前都沒學會，所以第一次挨打之前也不會有恐懼
第一次挨打以後就學會了
所以如果家長以前沒打過，你所謂的恐懼和忐忑就永遠不會發生
當然，如果上學了，看見別的孩子挨打了，還是會學會的，那個另當別論了 第一次挨打以后学会啥？学会父母会打自己？还是父母不会打自己？
大人的电视都避开他看得
养孩子真麻烦
父母偶尔的anger, frustration, irritation都是可以理解的，但这些情绪并不能把对孩子言语粗暴合理化正确化，最多只能说"人非圣贤，孰能无过", 父母也是人，也有犯错的时候。
但是应要把自己犯的错说成是对的，小孩子就应该这么教育，父母只要发火就可以口不择言，我认为是强词夺理。
我同意redsilence说的，事后能够向小孩子真诚地道个歉，admit the fault on your part, 同时也跟孩子process一下自己为什么会犯这样的错误，以及孩子本身的错误，效果会更好。
well, for me, some of them are semi-permanent
and that's an example of how different kids can be
and, let's pls focus on how to treat the kids better, not how the kids will grow out of parenting
concord mm在隔壁号哭帖里有很多好的经验谈
Last post regarding this conversation: all I am saying is that parents may know about what is best for kids and how to treat them well, much more than one thinks. Occasionally things can deviate from the plan, but it does not necessarily mean they don't know or haven't tried and how harmful that is to kids. And I don't disagree with you that parents should say sorry, I am just pointint out that even if they don't literally say that word, they could express their emotions via other means esp. for chinese who are used to be reserved wrt expressing their feelings. And kids can tell.
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:06:23编辑过]
It depends on whether you are talking about the "norm" or the "exception". I believe all of us here on the board belong to the former category. And for those exceptions, there is no use talking about "对自己要求严点" anyways. 在刻意虐待，和super好父母之间，有很多中间态的可能
我的意思是“父母”这个头衔，既不justify任何权力、也不justify很多能力，所以对自己要求严点没坏处
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:03:46编辑过]
第一次挨打以后学会啥？学会父母会打自己？还是父母不会打自己？
學會害怕挨打。。。
Last post regarding this conversation: all I am saying is that parents may know about what is best for kids and how to treat them well, much more than one thinks. Occasionally things can deviate from the plan, but it does not necessarily mean they don't know or haven't tried and how harmful that is to kids.
i acknowledged ur point and I proposed that in that case the parents apologize and explain more to the kid after the emotion is gone
首先，对2-3岁的孩子大声吼叫:"再哭就打死你", 绝对不是正确的教育方法!
父母偶尔的anger, frustration, irritation都是可以理解的，但这些情绪并不能把对孩子言语粗暴合理化正确化，最多只能说"人非圣贤，孰能无过", 父母也是人，也有犯错的时候。
但是应要把自己犯的错说成是对的，小孩子就应该这么教育，父母只要发火就可以口不择言，我认为是强词夺理。
我同意redsilence说的，事后能够向小孩子真诚地道个歉，admit the fault on your part, 同时也跟孩子process一下自己为什么会犯这样的错误，以及孩子本身的错误，效果会更好。
你說的都沒錯
但我理解這個投票的意義是界定什麽算abuse，什麽不算
abuse是個很重的詞，即便是verbal abuse，也是很重的指責，不是吼一次就叫abuse的
當然在最好和最壞之間是有很多很多個中間狀態的，絕大多數人都是處於中間狀態的
學會害怕挨打。。。
oh, so it's good idea to let the kid function out of fear
oh, so it's good idea to let the kid function out of fear
。。。。。這是你自己的推論吧，還是討論主題吧
在刻意虐待，和一丁点虐待都没有之间，有很多中间态的可能
我的意思是“父母”这个头衔，既不justify任何权力、也不justify很多能力，所以对自己要求严点没坏处
我正要说这个呢，It's a whole wide spectrum between two extreme states, 哪里有非黑即白了?
对了，我开始把你的ID看成resilence了，就想到:
很多人用自己小时候被父母言语粗暴过，而长大后好像没有什么负面影响，就认为那种伤害不值一提了。
其实，这些人是忽略了两个概念:
一个就是个体差异, 你没被影响到，并不代表别的人或者你的孩子在同样的伤害下不会受到影响。
另一个就是resilence. 对待伤害，每个人都有不同程度的resilence, isn't it a little bit too risky to test how resilent your child can be?
首先，对2-3岁的孩子大声吼叫:"再哭就打死你", 绝对不是正确的教育方法!
父母偶尔的anger, frustration, irritation都是可以理解的，但这些情绪并不能把对孩子言语粗暴合理化正确化，最多只能说"人非圣贤，孰能无过", 父母也是人，也有犯错的时候。
但是应要把自己犯的错说成是对的，小孩子就应该这么教育，父母只要发火就可以口不择言，我认为是强词夺理。
我同意redsilence说的，事后能够向小孩子真诚地道个歉，admit the fault on your part, 同时也跟孩子process一下自己为什么会犯这样的错误，以及孩子本身的错误，效果会更好。
赞。
不过话说回来，碰到那种万事就哭到一定要得到满足才可以的孩子，父母也是挺难的。
i acknowledged ur point and I proposed that in that case the parents apologize and explain more to the kid after the emotion is gone
呵呵～～mm， like i have explained, for 2, 3 year old kids, they would simply prefer a candy, not an apology~~
呵呵～～mm， like i have explained, for 2, 3 year old kids, they would simply prefer a candy, not an apology~~
hehe, that's right. Lollipop or icecream will do wonder to my daughter.
但是如果父母说：再哭，再哭打的你好看。
我觉得就ok，意思就是再哭要给你点教训
Last post regarding this conversation: all I am saying is that parents may know about what is best for kids and how to treat them well, much more than one thinks. Occasionally things can deviate from the plan, but it does not necessarily mean they don't know or haven't tried and how harmful that is to kids. And I don't disagree with you that parents should say sorry, I am just pointint out that even if they don't literally say that word, they could express their emotions via other means esp. for chinese who are used to be reserved wrt expressing their feelings. And kids can tell. yes. That's true.
the only possible problem is that those kids at a higher chance will grow into the same kind of witholding persons as their parents taught them. if that's what the parents want and the kids feel good about it, that's their choice.
在刻意虐待，和super好父母之间，有很多中间态的可能
我的意思是“父母”这个头衔，既不justify任何权力、也不justify很多能力，所以对自己要求严点没坏处
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:03:46编辑过]
赞这个。
hehe, that's right. Lollipop or icecream will do wonder to my daughter.
ironically....they do wonder on my boyfriend as well....
mm~~if one day i decide to have kids, you got to tell me how you handle them
我正要说这个呢，It's a whole wide spectrum between two extreme states, 哪里有非黑即白了?
对了，我开始把你的ID看成resilence了，就想到:
很多人用自己小时候被父母言语粗暴过，而长大后好像没有什么负面影响，就认为那种伤害不值一提了。
其实，这些人是忽略了两个概念:
一个就是个体差异, 你没被影响到，并不代表别的人或者你的孩子在同样的伤害下不会受到影响。
另一个就是resilence. 对待伤害，每个人都有不同程度的resilence, isn't it a little bit too risky to test how resilent your child can be?
totally agree
yes. That's true.
the only possible problem is that those kids at a higher chance will grow into the same kind of witholding persons as their parents taught them. if that's what the parents want and the kids feel good about it, that's their choice.
It seems I (along with some friends I know) am a small probability event according to your theory. hehe
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:18:13编辑过]
被虐待。。。
尊重婴儿儿童的同时，也请你尊重下天下任劳任怨的父母亲们
同意！
呵呵～～mm， like i have explained, for 2, 3 year old kids, they would simply prefer a candy, not an apology~~
an apology and a candy are not muturally exclusive吧？why not？
省得等看孩子懂事了再培养自己的道歉习惯
ironically....they do wonder on my boyfriend as well....
mm~~if one day i decide to have kids, you got to tell me how you handle them
a, you don't have kids? I thought you are very experience.
It seems I (along with some friends I know) am a small probability event according to your theory. hehe after all, it's ur own choice how to raise ur own kid.
an apology and a candy are not muturally exclusive吧？why not？
省得等看孩子懂事了再培养自己的道歉习惯
because they don't understand it. It does not mean you don't do it just because kids don't understand it. I think icylavender's point is that candy is more effective way of showing your regretness and love to a kid at this age.
Another example, my daughter learned to say sorry, after we told her many times. But you can tell she does not understand it at all: it seems to be sorry means same things as thank you or hi. Of course it's a good habit to have since young, but at this stage it's more of a manners training than her trully feeling sorry.
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:22:57编辑过]
呵呵～～mm， like i have explained, for 2, 3 year old kids, they would simply prefer a candy, not an apology~~
I have to disagree with it.
My 3rd child is 21 months now. He apologizes to his older sister and brother when he was 18 month old, when he accidentally ripped off their book pages.
He's able to do that because he learned from my other two kids to be polite to each other and say "sorry" or "thank you" when appropriate.
You can't underestimate the importance of "role modelling".
As parents, being a postive role model to our children is a crucial and essential part of parenting.
To a 2-3 year old, a sincere apology makes so much more sense than a piece of candy...
a, you don't have kids? I thought you are very experience.
day camp is much much worse than one child
an apology and a candy are not muturally exclusive吧？why not？
省得等看孩子懂事了再培养自己的道歉习惯
thinking ahead is always good. i see i see
I have to disagree with it.
My 3rd child is 21 months now. He apologizes to his older sister and brother when he was 18 month old, when he accidentally ripped off their book pages.
He's able to do that because he learned from my other two kids to be polite to each other and say "sorry" or "thank you" when appropriate.
You can't underestimate the importance of "role modelling".
As parents, being a postive role model to our children is a crucial and essential part of parenting.
To a 2-3 year old, a sincere apology makes so much more sense than a piece of candy...
oh wow, your kids are so mature......
after all, it's ur own choice how to raise ur own kid.
good that you acknowledge individuality in the process of raising the kid, which means there might not be a universal rule of what is the best/worst or what works/does not work for a kid. To be fair, that applies to my comments as well (if I am imposing somewhere).
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:32:55编辑过]
沒有孩子的人裏面，基本是3:1
看來沒孩子的人要求更嚴格一點啊
I have to disagree with it.
My 3rd child is 21 months now. He apologizes to his older sister and brother when he was 18 month old, when he accidentally ripped off their book pages.
He's able to do that because he learned from my other two kids to be polite to each other and say "sorry" or "thank you" when appropriate.
You can't underestimate the importance of "role modelling".
As parents, being a postive role model to our children is a crucial and essential part of parenting.
To a 2-3 year old, a sincere apology makes so much more sense than a piece of candy...
I am not saying you should not cultivate that manner/habit, but at least to my daughter who is 4 now, she does not fully understand what sorry means. So when I say sorry to her, she may not understand it fully. Gifts/candies/cakes/icecreams are very direct means of telling her that I love her, in addition to saying "sorry".
到現在為止，有孩子的人裏面，基本是2:1,
沒有孩子的人裏面，基本是3:1
看來沒孩子的人要求更嚴格一點啊
that totally makes sense to me. we should do a panel survey and follow the opinion years later of those who become parents later. That would be interesting
I am not saying you should not cultivate that manner/habit, but at least to my daughter who is 4 now, she does not fully understand what sorry means. So when I say sorry to her, she may not understand it fully. Gifts/candies/cakes/icecreams are very direct means of telling her that I love her, in addition to saying "sorry".
Does she not understand an apology, or do you think that she doesn't understand?
Have you or anyone had ever made a sincere apology to her before?
How did she react when someone bent down, looked into her eyes, and say "I'm sorry that I did.... I was angry because... I shouldn't have done that ... I love you and I'm sorry"?
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:33:54编辑过]
我沒說可以justify啊。我不是在討論小孩子的理解力和學習能力么
我覺得小孩子可以很清楚的明白，哪些是真實的威脅，哪些是大人口頭上說說的，我說的這兩種情況，都沒有任何physical act，都是口頭的威脅，但很明顯對小孩的意義是不同的
所以能不能算作abuse，要仔細考察
況且，所有的標準都是變化中的，今天的gold standard，明天看起來也許就是個有時代特徵的理論而已
說的好像小孩子一點傷害都承受不了也是沒意義的
这个说得对啊。别把孩子想像得太过脆弱，太过无知。我觉得孩子2-3岁也已经有认知了。他心里会知道谁对他好。我从别人处听过一个案例，是一对中国夫妇，打孩子的时候被邻居告了。上法庭时小孩哭得死去活来，一定要爸爸妈妈。后来孩子还是跟回父母了。
Does she not understand an apology, or do you think that she doesn't understand?
Have you or anyone had ever made an sincere apology to her?
How did she react when someone bent down, looked into her eyes, and say "I'm sorry that I did.... I was angry because... I shouldn't have done that ... I love you and I'm sorry"?
Yes to all three questions above.
Maybe my daughter is too immature. But one moment (not even one sec) after she says sorry (and very quickly), she goes away and play again. But I agree with you that it's a must to have good manners at early stage, which is what I am doing as well. But I just have some doubts on whether kids can pick up that deep. And to back up a bit, it's not everytime like that. Sometimes she does mean sorry, otherwise i really sound a incompetent mom (or my daughter has some learning issues.)
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:38:17编辑过]
谈得很热火朝天。呵呵。
我觉得有趣的是，这个帖子，大部分是没娃的人。。。。。。。。。
谈得很热火朝天。呵呵。
你这么总结性的论调，别人要不敢发言了。：）
Does she not understand an apology, or do you think that she doesn't understand?
Have you or anyone had ever made a sincere apology to her before?
How did she react when someone bent down, looked into her eyes, and say "I'm sorry that I did.... I was angry because... I shouldn't have done that ... I love you and I'm sorry"?
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:33:54编辑过]
想到一个好笑的，有一次我正儿八经想和她道歉，you know, 就是蹲下来，慢慢的，充满感情的要说那些话，没想人家还没听完一句呢就扭头跑了，要么就是叉题说别的了，搞得我很自作多情的样子。
我觉得有趣的是，这个帖子，大部分是没娃的人。。。。。。。。。
谈得很热火朝天。呵呵。
俺就是发现没娃的总把娃想的跟大人一样。。。就出来说几句。。。
俺带过day camp 3 - 14的都有。。。那叫一个混乱。。。
俺就是发现没娃的总把娃想的跟大人一样。。。就出来说几句。。。
俺带过day camp 3 - 14的都有。。。那叫一个混乱。。。
admire...
After I have kids, I truly admire and respect nursery or kindergarten teachers. Tough job really
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:48:41编辑过]
你这么总结性的论调，别人要不敢发言了。：）
没有没有，完全没有。。。。。。。。。。
我只想说，热情是好的，现实是残酷的。哈哈哈。
没有没有，完全没有。。。。。。。。。。
我只想说，热情是好的，现实是残酷的。哈哈哈。
哈哈，一语点睛阿。
想到一个好笑的，有一次我正儿八经想和她道歉，you know, 就是蹲下来，慢慢的，充满感情的要说那些话，没想人家还没听完一句呢就扭头跑了，要么就是叉题说别的了，搞得我很自作多情的样子。
我记得我到了6岁左右才把我妈的道歉当回事。老感动了。
想到一个好笑的，有一次我正儿八经想和她道歉，you know, 就是蹲下来，慢慢的，充满感情的要说那些话，没想人家还没听完一句呢就扭头跑了，要么就是叉题说别的了，搞得我很自作多情的样子。
MM, 和大多数中国父母一样，我的爸爸妈妈也很少跟我说抱歉，我爱你，等等这种sentimental的话的。
现在，即使我在某个时刻，心里是多莫强烈地盼望我能够把这些流露感情的话对他们说出口，但我做不到，我甚至做不到把妈妈搂过来给她一个hug.
因为觉得uncomfortable. 所以在这种时候，我都是顾左右而言他，眼睛酸酸地也强忍着不让眼泪流出来。
很多时候，当一种语言，一种感情太久不用，就会变得生疏而且别扭。
趁着女儿还小，还是多给她一些表达感情的机会吧，她长大了会终身受用的。 Good luck on keep trying!
admire...
After I have kids, I truly admire and respect nursery or kindergarten teachers. Tough job really
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 23:48:41编辑过]
day camp leaders at my YMCA were really really good. they really know how to make a kid listen and happy.
i learnt so much from that summer. Parenting is very very hard work...
MM, 和大多数中国父母一样，我的爸爸妈妈也很少跟我说抱歉，我爱你，等等这种sentimental的话的。
现在，即使我在某个时刻，心里是多莫强烈地盼望我能够把这些流露感情的话对他们说出口，但我做不到，我甚至做不到把妈妈搂过来给她一个hug.
因为觉得uncomfortable. 所以在这种时候，我都是顾左右而言他，眼睛酸酸地也强忍着不让眼泪流出来。
很多时候，当一种语言，一种感情太久不用，就会变得生疏而且别扭。
趁着女儿还小，还是多给她一些表达感情的机会吧，她长大了会终身受用的。 Good luck on keep trying!
我觉得我们父母那个年代，很少有爸爸妈妈会这样真情流露的。。。。。。哪怕心里多爱，也不会说，我爱你。宝宝。
所以我也是决定，在我可以说的时候，我天天说，使劲儿说，逮住机会就说。
我觉得我们父母那个年代，很少有爸爸妈妈会这样真情流露的。。。。。。哪怕心里多爱，也不会说，我爱你。宝宝。
所以我也是决定，在我可以说的时候，我天天说，使劲儿说，逮住机会就说。
是的，这是他们那个年代的局限性，不是他们的错。
但现在我们有这个认知，有这个能力，就要给我们的孩子更好的感情。
MM, 和大多数中国父母一样，我的爸爸妈妈也很少跟我说抱歉，我爱你，等等这种sentimental的话的。
现在，即使我在某个时刻，心里是多莫强烈地盼望我能够把这些流露感情的话对他们说出口，但我做不到，我甚至做不到把妈妈搂过来给她一个hug.
因为觉得uncomfortable. 所以在这种时候，我都是顾左右而言他，眼睛酸酸地也强忍着不让眼泪流出来。
很多时候，当一种语言，一种感情太久不用，就会变得生疏而且别扭。
趁着女儿还小，还是多给她一些表达感情的机会吧，她长大了会终身受用的。 Good luck on keep trying!
Same here when I try to express my feelings toward my parents.
Interestingly, my daughter seems to be more like American kids, very open. 又一次学校开母亲节party, 小朋友都要上台把自己做的手工送给妈妈，再说两句。结果我女儿是小朋友中说的最大声，最嘹亮的，"mommy, I love you", 完了还亲了我一下。那时真是觉得赢了你输了世界又如何。
day camp leaders at my YMCA were really really good. they really know how to make a kid listen and happy.
i learnt so much from that summer. Parenting is very very hard work...
That sound like a good summer activity for my daughter next time.
我觉得我们父母那个年代，很少有爸爸妈妈会这样真情流露的。。。。。。哪怕心里多爱，也不会说，我爱你。宝宝。
所以我也是决定，在我可以说的时候，我天天说，使劲儿说，逮住机会就说。
Yes, I say that to my daughter a lot. Nowadays, my daughter catches up and says it more often. Almost every night before sleep, she would say I love you mommy and give me a big hug.
That sound like a good summer activity for my daughter next time.
highly recommend～～
highly recommend～～
MM方便透露你在哪里的YMCA吗?
MM方便透露你在哪里的YMCA吗?
co-ask
MM方便透露你在哪里的YMCA吗?
我那个是加拿大卡尔加里的YMCA。。。离你们太远了。。。
你们可以去自己local的旁听一下。他们的游泳课还有父母陪同的。美国应该也有的吧～～
以前沒挨過打的
恐嚇“我要打死你”就是一句空話，小孩不會因此害怕和忐忑，所以我認為，這種情況不是abuse
說明白了么。。。
除非他看到別人打了，聽了打人的故事，被人打過了，或者明白死是什麽意思了，這個時候，才開始理解。。。我們才討論，這句話是不是abuse
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-21 22:55:00编辑过]
反正我的儿子两岁就知道"死"的概念, 是因为看到了路上被车压死的兔子, 刨根问底, 解释到他明白死了就是在也不能活动, 没有妈妈, 妈妈也没有他了. 当天很难过, 事后也不时会提起, 尤其是我在教育他过马路要牵手的时候, 他自己会把小兔子被车撞死的事情再提出来, 然后显出很难过的样子. 所以我相信他是理解了, 虽然和成年人对死的理解不完全一样, 不过害怕忐忑这些心理状态都是很明显能看出来的.
三岁的孩子, 我知道有的父母已经给他们看类似于transformer这样有一些暴力因素的动画片. 虽然我没有给儿子看这些, 但是一起玩的小朋友, 玩的时候会模拟里面的语言和场面. 还有很多耳熟能详的童话故事里, 也有不少关于以强凌弱和死亡的情节.
我想说的是, 两三岁的孩子, 对"打死"这样一件事, 不是懵懂无知的. 所以我会把这样的话划分到abuse 的范围, 尤其还是"吼叫".
我觉得我们父母那个年代，很少有爸爸妈妈会这样真情流露的。。。。。。哪怕心里多爱，也不会说，我爱你。宝宝。
所以我也是决定，在我可以说的时候，我天天说，使劲儿说，逮住机会就说。
是, 我也是, 天天说, 使劲儿说.
我那个是加拿大卡尔加里的YMCA。。。离你们太远了。。。
你们可以去自己local的旁听一下。他们的游泳课还有父母陪同的。美国应该也有的吧～～
真可惜.YMCA我这里是有的.PROGRAM差不多,但是教练不同差别就大了去了.
反正我的儿子两岁就知道"死"的概念, 是因为看到了路上被车压死的兔子, 刨根问底, 解释到他明白死了就是在也不能活动, 没有妈妈, 妈妈也没有他了. 当天很难过, 事后也不时会提起, 尤其是我在教育他过马路要牵手的时候, 他自己会把小兔子被车撞死的事情再提出来, 然后显出很难过的样子. 所以我相信他是理解了, 虽然和成年人对死的理解不完全一样, 不过害怕忐忑这些心理状态都是很明显能看出来的.
三岁的孩子, 我知道有的父母已经给他们看类似于transformer这样有一些暴力因素的动画片. 虽然我没有给儿子看这些, 但是一起玩的小朋友, 玩的时候会模拟里面的语言和场面. 还有很多耳熟能详的童话故事里, 也有不少关于以强凌弱和死亡的情节.
我想说的是, 两三岁的孩子, 对"打死"这样一件事, 不是懵懂无知的. 所以我会把这样的话划分到abuse 的范围, 尤其还是"吼叫".
我家飞飞森森两岁生日的时候，朋友送了他们一缸金鱼(其实只有两只),
没过俩月金鱼就被我们给养死了(我们太笨了，除了孩子就养不了别的活物儿),
飞飞森森都哭了，这是他们第一次知道死的概念，而且非常直观。
死了就是再也不会游了，不会吃饭了，见不到他们的爸爸妈妈和任何其他在世界上的人了。
我家飞飞森森两岁生日的时候，朋友送了他们一缸金鱼(其实只有两只),
没过俩月金鱼就被我们给养死了(我们太笨了，除了孩子就养不了别的活物儿),
飞飞森森都哭了，这是他们第一次知道死的概念，而且非常直观。
死了就是再也不会游了，不会吃饭了，见不到他们的爸爸妈妈和任何其他在世界上的人了。
我小学的时候第一次养活物，4条金鱼。没啥意外，一条接一条死掉。
我痛哭了四场。那种感受，真的是很难过。
从此我不再养活物。除了植物。
哦，还有我娃。
我的努力目标就是：让她活着。
我小学的时候第一次养活物，4条金鱼。没啥意外，一条接一条死掉。
我痛哭了四场。那种感受，真的是很难过。
从此我不再养活物。除了植物。
哦，还有我娃。
我的努力目标就是：让她活着。
我们家植物也被养死过，真的是活物杀手啊!
飞森小的时候，我曾经有一度seriously觉得他们俩也要被我养死了，因为不喝奶呀!
儿医都refer我们去看专科，原因是failure to thrive, 看了PT, GI各种专家，
最后一个比我们年长的朋友对我们说:"美国这儿的小孩怎么死的都听说过，就是没听说过饿死的。他们饿了自然就吃了，你们不用着急。"
事实证明，他俩果真没有被饿死，树立了我家历史上首次饲养活物成功的案例。
于是，我们就又养了老三。
父母也不是老遇到顺心事，孩子哭起来也不是每次都有原因的，也有小事无理撒娇的。
这样两件事碰起来，这样做也很自然
什么scenario不算abuse呢？
这个abuse是不是应该按孩子的角度来看？
两三岁的孩子懂得看context么？
这个小孩会懂得。我哥哥的小孩和我们住。小的只有15个月，大的2岁6个月。他们会看脸色的。有时候很烦人，特别是2个一起闹的时候。我爸爸妈妈很疼他们，但是我会咬他们的手指头。
平时叫警察的什么的都没有用，只有爷爷奶奶说姑姑（我）来咬人了，他们都会很乖的。他们不懂警察，打人，只是知道我会咬他们。
小孩都有他们自己懂的害怕方式。譬如这个小孩就只有‘打死’才能令到她害怕呢。
建议LZ自己有了孩子再来讨论......理论和实践是有差距的........这才是2~3 岁, 后面还有更难过的teen......父母难为啊...........
当然难了，小时你还能威胁打死人家，teen了，不鸟你，没辙了？
我小时候不吃药我妈就是拿着菜刀对我吼，不吃我就砍死你。。。。
mm你长大后有心理阴影么？我觉得很可怕啊
我妈说，她小时候每天出去玩，我姥姥都跟在后面吼一句：吃饭的时候就回来！你不回来我打折你的腿！
在她幼小的耳朵里，就好象听见：宝宝，别玩太晚，早点回来吃饭啊～
我小时候不吃药我妈就是拿着菜刀对我吼，不吃我就砍死你。。。。
当然难了，小时你还能威胁打死人家，teen了，不鸟你，没辙了？
我小时候不吃药我妈就是拿着菜刀对我吼，不吃我就砍死你。。。。
这个，mm当时你怕吗？听着就挺怕的了。
看环境，过去每家都打孩子的时候，这不算啥。如果家长平时一直和颜悦色的，突然说这么一句，孩子会很害怕。不过一般来说，能说这样话的家长，肯定平时也没少骂孩子，孩子早就习惯了，所以构不成什么伤害。
我妈说，她小时候每天出去玩，我姥姥都跟在后面吼一句：吃饭的时候就回来！你不回来我打折你的腿！
在她幼小的耳朵里，就好象听见：宝宝，别玩太晚，早点回来吃饭啊～
hahahaha...我不厚道地笑了。。。
伤害哇
所以我觉得是虐待
而且，我觉得，从我的角度，我宁可希望有个新妈妈
hahahaha...我不厚道地笑了。。。
这是我妈亲口说的，当笑话讲呢，可见她没受到伤害
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-22 9:27:25编辑过]
但是，我嚼着这样的讨论没有意思。我可以想象那些没怎么受过教育的人，脾气差点的，一定能说出这样的话来。SO WHAT？他们就没资格做父母了？
这个问题其实蛮难的。世界这么大，怎么可能总是理想化？
看环境，过去每家都打孩子的时候，这不算啥。如果家长平时一直和颜悦色的，突然说这么一句，孩子会很害怕。不过一般来说，能说这样话的家长，肯定平时也没少骂孩子，孩子早就习惯了，所以构不成什么伤害。
我妈说，她小时候每天出去玩，我姥姥都跟在后面吼一句：吃饭的时候就回来！你不回来我打折你的腿！
在她幼小的耳朵里，就好象听见：宝宝，别玩太晚，早点回来吃饭啊～
哈哈哈哈～～～这个太可爱了
没做过父母，永远不会理解父母的艰辛。站着说话腰不疼，太容易做到了。
我小学的时候第一次养活物，4条金鱼。没啥意外，一条接一条死掉。
我痛哭了四场。那种感受，真的是很难过。
从此我不再养活物。除了植物。
哦，还有我娃。
我的努力目标就是：让她活着。
其实相比金鱼来，娃真的很好养活也
2-3岁还没认知能力呢。这么说，就算是盛怒，也太过分了吧。
不过话说回来，碰到那种万事就哭到一定要得到满足才可以的孩子，父母也是挺难的。
那就让他哭，不理就完了。我就不信他能一直哭一整天
我从来没被父母打过，也没怎么被骂过，谢谢我爸爸妈妈。
但是小时候要是父母吵架我就特别害怕。 说不出的害怕的感觉。 所以现在我说什么也不吵架。
所以小时候被父母打的， 想想当时自己怎么想的， 想想今天自己打骂孩子， 孩子会怎么想，是不是可以改进一下。。。。
我觉得小孩子控制力和思维能力都不如大人， 这个时候大人要控制。。。 偶尔控制不住， 可以理解， 但是不能justify.
其实大家以己达人， 想想孩子呢？
我从来没被父母打过，也没怎么被骂过，谢谢我爸爸妈妈。
但是小时候要是父母吵架我就特别害怕。 说不出的害怕的感觉。 所以现在我说什么也不吵架。
所以小时候被父母打的， 想想当时自己怎么想的， 想想今天自己打骂孩子， 孩子会怎么想，是不是可以改进一下。。。。
我觉得小孩子控制力和思维能力都不如大人， 这个时候大人要控制。。。 偶尔控制不住， 可以理解， 但是不能justify.
我找拍。。。。。
[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-22 10:53:15编辑过]
当然难了，小时你还能威胁打死人家，teen了，不鸟你，没辙了？
是,我见过对自己孩子没辙的父母. 小时候邻居家的男孩脾气上来可以打他妈妈,他妈妈每次都说那是我自己的儿子,我能把他怎么办. 那时我就很可怜那个母亲.
我觉得有趣的是，这个帖子，大部分是没娃的人。。。。。。。。。
谈得很热火朝天。呵呵。
nod，而且对父母提出了非常高的要求。就是不知道以后自己真的做了父母，是不是可以做到那么完美无缺，呵呵。
其实大家以己达人， 想想孩子呢？
我从来没被父母打过，也没怎么被骂过，谢谢我爸爸妈妈。
但是小时候要是父母吵架我就特别害怕。 说不出的害怕的感觉。 所以现在我说什么也不吵架。
所以小时候被父母打的， 想想当时自己怎么想的， 想想今天自己打骂孩子， 孩子会怎么想，是不是可以改进一下。。。。
我觉得小孩子控制力和思维能力都不如大人， 这个时候大人要控制。。。 偶尔控制不住， 可以理解， 但是不能justify.
强烈同意。总是有父母从自己的出发点来判断或者辩护自己的行为。其实你是不是伤害了孩子，是孩子说了算，是以他的感受为准的。有时候后果和初衷并不配合默契的。
nod，而且对父母提出了非常高的要求。就是不知道以后自己真的做了父母，是不是可以做到那么完美无缺，呵呵。
能不能做到是一回事， 但是总要高标准严要求开始吧。。 要是没开始就说， 我以后反正不能怎么怎么。。。这个就。。。
能不能做到， 和尽全力努力去做， 又是一回事情。我就是觉得大家在我实在不行了要发火了的时候， 能不能再问问自己， 我能不能再努力一下。。。如果每次都最后关头再想想， 慢慢的也许就少发几次脾气。 还有就是实在没忍住发脾气了， 事后可以和孩子就自己的态度道歉。 注明， 只是就态度道歉。该讲的道理还是要讲。
我自己以前是个非常火爆脾气的人，3天一吵， 后来就努力做到不发脾气， 现在就基本上做到了。。做到以后我觉得很开心。。 我想大家还是可以严格要求自己挑战一下自己
too many crazy parents out there
it is very hard to be a parent, especially for the ones that are not ready. The original life just totally got disturbed.