我不是巨富我不知道啊。。 比如说抵押贷款,如果直接让银行充公一部分抵押资产,这时候需要交capital gain tax吗? 而且理论上,只要股票资产价格够高,这部分贷款可以一直无限延期下去吧?
你知道forgiveness of debt 要交税的吧? 银行是活雷锋吗?一账不平无限延期?他当然是先强行平仓,然后再让你再借啊。要不然明天你股票跌了,银行找谁去啊?银行是借钱的,不是炒股的。
我建议你多看看正经数据。比如全美前25富“They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. ” 更别提好多州capital gain tax 都超过10%了。
你知道forgiveness of debt 要交税的吧? 银行是活雷锋吗?一账不平无限延期?他当然是先强行平仓,然后再让你再借啊。要不然明天你股票跌了,银行找谁去啊?银行是借钱的,不是炒股的。
我建议你多看看正经数据。比如全美前25富“They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. ” 更别提好多州capital gain tax 都超过10%了。
IRS是SB,美国税法存在大量loophole,这不是常识吗? 川粉为了洗地,竟然连这种常识都要挑战?? Buy-Borrow-Die这都已经讨论多少年了,你是完全不接触金融,所以完全没半点基本概念? Say you own a successful business—so successful that your stake in it is worth $1bn. How should you fund your spending? If you pay yourself a wage of $20m a year, the federal government will collect 37%, or some $7.4m. So perhaps you should take a salary of $1 and sell $20m-worth of shares. If these were gifted to you upon founding the firm, the entire sum represents capital gains and will be taxed at 20%, which would mean a $4m hit. What if, instead, you called up your wealth manager and agreed to put up $100m-worth of equity as collateral for a $20m loan. In 2021 the interest rate on the loan might have been just 2% a year, meaning that returns from holding the equity, rather than selling it, would easily have covered the cost of servicing the borrowing. Because the proceeds of loans, which must be eventually repaid, are not considered income, doing so would have incurred no tax liability at all. The strategy is even more compelling once the “stepped-up basis” is considered. When the holder of an asset dies, the value for capital-gains assessments is “stepped up” from its purchase cost to its value at the time of death. In this way, “buy, borrow, die” does not simply defer capital-gains taxes—it can eliminate them entirely. Nothing is paid on gains made between the original purchase of an asset and the value at the death of the original holder.
At Morgan Stanley and Bank of America (BoA), both of which run large wealth-management businesses, the total value of securities-backed loans to clients leapt from around $80bn in 2018 to almost $150bn in 2022. Banks are more than happy to make such loans. As lending tends to be collateralised by securities that can be easily seized and sold, it is treated as low-risk by regulators. https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/06/20/americas-rich-never-sell-their-assets-how-should-they-be-taxed
1)抵押的是highly liquid 股票,为啥不能自动平仓?? 2)这里说的就是富人缴税只占了他们财富增长的一小部分,因为他们以各种方式避免 realize the gain 所以才要提这个所谓的unrealized gain capital tax 3)这个钱早就被人赚了。。。 MS 和 BoA,仅仅两家银行这方面的股票抵押贷款业务就有1500亿美元,足够有钱人开销了
IRS是SB,美国税法存在大量loophole,这不是常识吗? 川粉为了洗地,竟然连这种常识都要挑战?? Buy-Borrow-Die这都已经讨论多少年了,你是完全不接触金融,所以完全没半点基本概念? Say you own a successful business—so successful that your stake in it is worth $1bn. How should you fund your spending? If you pay yourself a wage of $20m a year, the federal government will collect 37%, or some $7.4m. So perhaps you should take a salary of $1 and sell $20m-worth of shares. If these were gifted to you upon founding the firm, the entire sum represents capital gains and will be taxed at 20%, which would mean a $4m hit. What if, instead, you called up your wealth manager and agreed to put up $100m-worth of equity as collateral for a $20m loan. In 2021 the interest rate on the loan might have been just 2% a year, meaning that returns from holding the equity, rather than selling it, would easily have covered the cost of servicing the borrowing. Because the proceeds of loans, which must be eventually repaid, are not considered income, doing so would have incurred no tax liability at all. The strategy is even more compelling once the “stepped-up basis” is considered. When the holder of an asset dies, the value for capital-gains assessments is “stepped up” from its purchase cost to its value at the time of death. In this way, “buy, borrow, die” does not simply defer capital-gains taxes—it can eliminate them entirely. Nothing is paid on gains made between the original purchase of an asset and the value at the death of the original holder.
At Morgan Stanley and Bank of America (BoA), both of which run large wealth-management businesses, the total value of securities-backed loans to clients leapt from around $80bn in 2018 to almost $150bn in 2022. Banks are more than happy to make such loans. As lending tends to be collateralised by securities that can be easily seized and sold, it is treated as low-risk by regulators. https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/06/20/americas-rich-never-sell-their-assets-how-should-they-be-taxed
Namama 发表于 2024-10-30 18:09 1)抵押的是highly liquid 股票,为啥不能自动平仓?? 2)这里说的就是富人缴税只占了他们财富增长的一小部分,因为他们以各种方式避免 realize the gain 所以才要提这个所谓的unrealized gain capital tax 3)这个钱早就被人赚了。。。 MS 和 BoA,仅仅两家银行这方面的股票抵押贷款业务就有1500亿美元,足够有钱人开销了
死了capital gain tax 不交就要交estate tax 啊。 不交estate tax 就要交capital gain tax啊。 defer tax要看at what cost. 529也defer tax,也没见大家一年存5万啊 大衣被禁 发表于 2024-10-30 22:36
死了后的estate tax是谁交呢 死人交吗 那时候 life insurance ILIT就step in了 而且很早放进irrevocable trust的部分 以后所有的增值 都不受遗产税限制了 529是你没见过 第一年一个人可以contribute up to 90k which is 5 year allowance, 最高根据州 可以一个帐户二十多万到三十多万
这么牛的表格。
近50年来,钱都流到了资本家手里了,大家赚的W2的钱就越来越相对的少,越来越不值钱了
这是边际普通收入的最高税率。
就看rate不看income么?过去90%的税,对应的income是现在的好几米。现在净逮着中产薅羊毛,还莫名其妙扣个富人头衔
re
富人怎么能做零税收 愿闻其详
愿闻其详 怎么做到一年700
早就扫盲多少遍了。。
股票不套现, 需要用钱的时候,拿这些股票进行抵押贷款, 不但不用交income tax,利息还能抵税
他们一般怎么操作?
只有股票,没有w2收入?
请问巨富不用还贷款的吗?
我不是巨富我不知道啊。。
比如说抵押贷款,如果直接让银行充公一部分抵押资产,这时候需要交capital gain tax吗? 而且理论上,只要股票资产价格够高,这部分贷款可以一直无限延期下去吧?
你知道forgiveness of debt 要交税的吧?
银行是活雷锋吗?一账不平无限延期?他当然是先强行平仓,然后再让你再借啊。要不然明天你股票跌了,银行找谁去啊?银行是借钱的,不是炒股的。
我建议你多看看正经数据。比如全美前25富“They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. ” 更别提好多州capital gain tax 都超过10%了。
巴菲特盖茨等等都说富人应该多交点 80多亿万富翁背书kamala,都是知道疮毒是什么货色
川普说富人应该减税也是没有办法 他tm的确没钱啊,账上都是负的
你这叫扫盲? 我估计你连最低替代税都不懂把? 你还钱的时候不就要交税了? 你以为美国税务局是烧饼(SB)吗 出台的富人税是可以说避就避的? 不论你啥方法 都有一个最低替代税压死你 你避税部分不能让你的税点低于最低替代税 哪怕你借款花欠的钱 你要还的时候一样自动激发最低替代税 包括你公司奖励你 你甚至都没有卖掉的股票 都要立刻交最低替代税 (而这是大部分人的情况 因为realise 才交税的激励股票的金额限制非常之低 也就是马斯克被奖励了价值8亿的股票 必然是属于立刻会被realise的激励性股票 也就是立马要交30%多的最低替代税 也就是好几亿的税收 并且没有任何途径可以避免) 这些都是金融课基础常识
Highest marginal tax.
adjusted for inflation.
不要告诉我中产是1 million level
这都什么乱七八糟的。。
股价跌了会自动触发强行平仓机制啊 所以先还再借的意义是啥?? 对银行来说承担的风险并没啥区别
你要不要算算全美前25富,过去5年里财富增加了多少,这13.6B的所得税只占多大比例??
IRS是SB,美国税法存在大量loophole,这不是常识吗? 川粉为了洗地,竟然连这种常识都要挑战??
Buy-Borrow-Die这都已经讨论多少年了,你是完全不接触金融,所以完全没半点基本概念?
Say you own a successful business—so successful that your stake in it is worth $1bn. How should you fund your spending? If you pay yourself a wage of $20m a year, the federal government will collect 37%, or some $7.4m. So perhaps you should take a salary of $1 and sell $20m-worth of shares. If these were gifted to you upon founding the firm, the entire sum represents capital gains and will be taxed at 20%, which would mean a $4m hit. What if, instead, you called up your wealth manager and agreed to put up $100m-worth of equity as collateral for a $20m loan. In 2021 the interest rate on the loan might have been just 2% a year, meaning that returns from holding the equity, rather than selling it, would easily have covered the cost of servicing the borrowing. Because the proceeds of loans, which must be eventually repaid, are not considered income, doing so would have incurred no tax liability at all.
The strategy is even more compelling once the “stepped-up basis” is considered. When the holder of an asset dies, the value for capital-gains assessments is “stepped up” from its purchase cost to its value at the time of death. In this way, “buy, borrow, die” does not simply defer capital-gains taxes—it can eliminate them entirely. Nothing is paid on gains made between the original purchase of an asset and the value at the death of the original holder.
At Morgan Stanley and Bank of America (BoA), both of which run large wealth-management businesses, the total value of securities-backed loans to clients leapt from around $80bn in 2018 to almost $150bn in 2022. Banks are more than happy to make such loans. As lending tends to be collateralised by securities that can be easily seized and sold, it is treated as low-risk by regulators.
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/06/20/americas-rich-never-sell-their-assets-how-should-they-be-taxed
??? 啥叫股价跌了自动平仓啊? 你房子跌了,银行能让你把30年房贷一个月还清? 你都说啥乱七八糟的啊? 先还再借的意义就是借了钱就得到期还啊。
这跟人家财富增长有啥关系啊?人家财富增长是unrealized gain啊。您不是说人家不交税吗?我告诉你人家交税,平均每人每年交一个亿。我建议你给他们去当会计,传授你不交税大法。一年帮人省一个亿,你起码能赚1千万。
所以为了造福富人,他们连团队都不需要雇佣直接免税是吗?
逻辑就是真正富人有专业律师团队,一万种无罪辩护方法,所以他们杀人不犯法是吗?
1)抵押的是highly liquid 股票,为啥不能自动平仓??
2)这里说的就是富人缴税只占了他们财富增长的一小部分,因为他们以各种方式避免 realize the gain 所以才要提这个所谓的unrealized gain capital tax
3)这个钱早就被人赚了。。。 MS 和 BoA,仅仅两家银行这方面的股票抵押贷款业务就有1500亿美元,足够有钱人开销了
你常识都不懂 避税你能避利息吗 你1000万增值 贷款了800万 花800万+利息 如果花掉了后 你的资本没增值到1800万 你就得立刻还钱 还钱就立刻要交税 还要交利息 承受双倍风险 而且BUY BORROW DIE 这个是为了自己死了继承的时候 减资本利得税用的 什么时候感觉你不死也可以触发? 你必须要死了 才能叫 BUY BORROW DIE 活着 就要还钱 + 还利息 除非你的资本增值速度极快 并且没有任何波动 有波动你就大幅交税 + 无收益 + 白交利息 最多只能做到偶尔一两年税比较低 利息比较低 之后可能突然出现交特别多税还亏利息的情况 还有 绝大多数你现在知道的有钱人 比如马斯克 他想避税 门都没有 都是激励股权 立刻要缴税的 而且都是几亿美金的去缴 怎么就成了你口中 富人想不交就不交呢?非常理论上的情况 并且非常少数极少数的有钱人在纯理论 贷款+利息永远赶不上资产上涨波动 运气极佳的人 才可能交的税 低于15% 绝大多数富人最低的税就是只缴纳资本利得税 而大部分CEO 新贵 上市公司的高端人才 和金融大鳄 都是逃不掉30多的最低替代税的
再看看你发的英文 也是和你的论点风马牛不相及 仅仅1000来亿的资本用这种方式常识管理税务 你知道美国富人阶层掌控的资金是多少美金吗 几十万亿了 才1000亿还是最近才上升的趋势 很可能是因为很多人快挂了才用这种方式想降低遗产税+资本利得双重税收的 用遗产的方式 也就仅避免这些股票继承过程 重新计算本金 这也很合理 因为我8000万股票 是3000万增知道8000的 我没realise那么多 我只交了2000万部分的税 其他我就没卖过 但是我给小孩的时候 这3000万的就可以豁免资本利得税了 但是含这3000万的增值的总本金 通过这种遗产方式 能避免遗产税吗?当然不能 也就是说 8000万交了遗产税 当然合理的避税 可以不用再补3000万的资本利得了 毕竟我到死都没有最终realize 那3000万
因为你借了钱,银行不能说卖你的抵押品就卖你的抵押品。银行要在你债务到期,你逾期的情况下才能卖。您债务不到期他不能卖。您逾期了,就算你的抵押品值几十倍,银行也要卖啊。不会等你抵押品跌了再卖啊。您到底懂不懂什么叫借钱啊。 谢谢您担心啦。人家一年交一个亿的税,交过税的收入就几个亿啦,真的够花啦,真的不是靠借钱出生活费的。
这就是川普的政策之一啊, 上次总统辩论的时候就说过,自己雇的律师知道tax code,合法避税。 韭菜们就等着割。
BBD的前提就是自己这辈子剩下来预期的开销远低于资产,不然显然是不安全的。满足这个条件的都是超级巨富。
你是不是看不懂英文?
我有10万亿的财富,但我每年吃喝玩乐只要1亿,那么自然只需要股票质押贷款1亿即可 所以这1000多亿,纯粹就是富人抵押套出来开销的资金而已,又不是财富总额
这点都没搞懂,扯毛啊。。
啥?抵押的股票在股价下跌的时候不能强制清仓?谁说的? 抵押品价格贬值的时候,谁管你到期不到期? 你要么拿出更多的抵押品,要么直接还钱,俗称强制清仓
我记得你老公以前搞金融的,你可以问问他呀。。
我说了啊。您房子跌的时候,银行会不会来强制清仓啊?
房价一跌就触发清仓的显然没资格搞BBD啊,搞BBD至少资产得是年支出的100倍才安全吧
这里说的是股票质押贷款,你听到过Margin Call吗?
但凡这个税真能收,早收了,unrealized capital都是投资,投资就能帮助经济增长,你既然收,人家就realize然后胡吃海塞造掉,没人投资了,整个经济崩盘。
您说的对。 那您解释一下人家一年几个亿的after tax income 是不是不够生活啊?还要做活雷锋每年出几个亿的利息?
只要你的资产增值能基本持平贷款利息,就不亏啊
不理解啊。啥叫不亏啊。这笔钱总是要还啊。还的时候总是要交income tax啊。你一分税都不少交啊。你只是推迟交税啊。
死了就资债两清,把税逃了
呵呵。。有每年2%的低息给你杠杆,你不用?
谁一年几个亿的after tax income? 你指整个富人阶级?那肯定不够用啊。。
1)可用 规避遗产税来逃
2)即使真的要缴税,早交和晚交的区别大了。。 deferred tax是个benefit,这也是金融常识吧? 晚几十年缴税,这福利漏洞还不够大?
??? 不是说了吗,us top 25 riches 每年每人交1亿Fed income tax 不就是几亿after tax income 吗?跟你说话好累啊
当然要交税的啊。you either pay income tax or estate tax. 你举个一毛钱不要交的例子。
因为这些人真有income啊,比如马斯克扎克伯格作为各种CEO都有天价收入,这些事没法避税的,能避的只有资产增值
要交estate tax,因为你还有estate,但你的estate是资产减去负债,如果你BBD,那么这个负债就是本来你活着的时候应该变现资产先交税再花的,结果变成负债,死后和资产抵消,相当于没有交这部分税,明白了么?
你想说啥啊? 我说的是他们每年有几个亿的after tax income 你是不是同意啊?够他们生活了。是不是啊?够生活了就不需要借钱了啊。是不是啊?
是啊,如果够了谁还借,当然是不够才借啊,这不废话么
我的意思就是富人的生活花销没有靠借的。你同意吧?
不同意。有的有,有的没有,富豪当CEO有新收入就可以不用借,典型的比如cook;但如果富豪退休之后没有主动收入,那就只能靠资产兑现,这时候就要交资产增值税,但靠借钱搞BBD就可以逃过。
Dividends 不够活吗
那你要这么说还可以问地产的租金够不够,但这些跟资产配置有关,总有不够需要填补的
Family foundation capital gain 只有2%的税
这跟资产配置意思啥关系啊。100% stocks也有dividends 啊
share pledge啊 借钱花不是很常见的富人避税策略吗。能defer tax也是避税的一种 死了capital gain就不用交税了 不然为什么富人都变着法地defer tax
不是啥股票都有dividend啊,比如一个人的资产如果都是facebook股票,那么他前年死也啥都没有,如果把这些股票变现那就要交税。
或者经济不好,dividend不够花,各种情况都有啊,怎么可能所有富人的当年short term income都够花
加上trust, step up, 资产抵押借钱花,能收到的更少
死了capital gain tax 不交就要交estate tax 啊。 不交estate tax 就要交capital gain tax啊。 defer tax要看at what cost. 529也defer tax,也没见大家一年存5万啊
但总比死前变现先交一道capital gain tax死后再交一道estate tax强吧
但是不是你们都说富人不交estate tax啊。钱都在family foundation啊。
不是的,钱还是要还的,但是step up, 卖股票还钱不需要付capital gain tax
比如你借了1万块,等你挂了后代卖股票得1万块就2清了
如果你不借,卖一万块股票可能5000是增值,这5000块你要交税,所以你要卖1万多股票才能有1万块花
我说的就是这个意思啊,这是只考虑一年的情况,如果年年借就要考虑投资收益能beat负债利息
那也是借钱比资产变现划算,如果当年的short term income不够花的情况下
??? 钱变现,gain交20% tax.借钱交estate tax. 本+gain 40% tax.咋划算啊?
死了后的estate tax是谁交呢 死人交吗 那时候 life insurance ILIT就step in了 而且很早放进irrevocable trust的部分 以后所有的增值 都不受遗产税限制了 529是你没见过 第一年一个人可以contribute up to 90k which is 5 year allowance, 最高根据州 可以一个帐户二十多万到三十多万
20% capital gain就省了啊,如果你变现就要交这个,不变现只借钱借到死,这个20%就逃掉了
我反复说了。 你有10个亿,其中6亿本金4亿gain借了一个亿9千万生活1千万利息。死了。交了4亿遗产税。还了一亿钱。还有5亿留给你娃。 你不借钱,花了9千万生活,交了1千万税,剩下9亿都放在family foundation留给你娃了。 你觉得哪个好?
不是,要estate tax就都estate tax,要foundation就都foundation,你这一个estate tax一个foundation怎么比。。。
而且你不能光算那1亿的利息,还要考虑没变现那1亿的资产增值呢,变现就没有继续增值了
多讨论讨论不错
而且也不是先交遗产税再还钱啊,是先资债两清再交遗产税啊,这个差很多的