意大利新冠封城黑死病和那历史 - 2/25 11死322确诊 意大利用克力芝利巴韦林鸡尾酒 佛罗伦萨市中心确诊

梅干茶泡饭
楼主 (北美华人网)
----关于新冠----会持续更新---更多更新在一楼底部-----后面还有很多我贴的谷歌翻译的新闻---
2/24晚更新 目前7死 229确诊。意大利是只要死者感染了新冠就算victim, 和中国统计的有区别。我觉得,他们是想这样既显得咱这届政府果断有力捞民意,又能哭声大点管欧盟要钱,足可以看出人家意大利古老智慧聪明啊。(网友提醒其实除了中国以外都是这么统计的,不管死因,有感染病毒就算流感)意大利不愧是隔离,解剖,现代医学发源地。 https://www.corriere.it/cronache/20_febbraio_24/coronavirus-italia-ultime-notizie-oggi-nord-23035e06-56ce-11ea-b89d-a5ca249e9e1e.shtml 今天最大的进展是发现了一个有可能的把病毒从伦巴底大区散播到维尼托大区的关键传播者:一个为出版自己写的有机农业书奔波的农民,他来往疫情严峻的两处而且是酒吧常客= =

2/23下午更新 现在意大利有3例死亡了, 149确诊。“An elderly cancer patient became the third person who tested positive for the virus to die since Friday in the country”, with 149 confirmed cases nationwide.” (https://www.thejournal.ie/italy-coronavirus-football-5018422-Feb2020/

意大利的文化民风导致人民对瘟疫特别敏感,特别push政府采取强硬措施。所以意大利政党这几年也是很有竞选压力,所以特别早就制定了plan, 然后做好了准备。伦巴第大区爆发之后处理的非常果断。这三例死亡都是老年人,也有基础病,换到武汉就顶多一个“疑似”或者死在家里,所以算不到确诊。这次意大利的例子真实展示了病毒到底有多厉害。意大利第二例伦巴第大区过世的老年女性,是在死后才通过尸检确诊的。

---原帖-------------------------------------------

1.意大利最先确诊的是罗马的一对中国旅客。全副武装的“登月部队”出现在罗马市中心闹市区的旅店前,于是所有人都知道了这件事情。紧接着首相宣布停止所有中国直飞飞机。然并卵,意大利属于申根区,并没有“硬”边境。尤其是现在隧道通车后从苏黎世到达米兰只需要短短四五个小时,沿着地中海从尼斯到热内亚也是很方便的。东边的斯洛文尼亚暂时risk还小些。

2. 虽然没有硬边境,但是在过境的火车/路口,如果要求检查你的护照/ID,你还是要出示的。
意大利法律规定所有外国人出行需携带护照在身上。当然大家都知道意大利扒手的厉害。所以很多人都是把护照留在旅店,携带copy在身上。。。

3 第一例非中国人确诊出现在伦巴第大区。伦巴第大区就是米兰那个大区。这个强壮爱运动的年轻男子不知怎么感染了新冠,病情严重。他的一个朋友在一月底从中国返回意大利,并和他吃个了饭。一度大家怀疑这个朋友是传染源。但这个人并没有检测出病毒。

4. 第一例死亡是威尼托大区帕多瓦Padova的一个老爷爷。威尼托大区最有名的地方就是威尼斯。他有三个子女,一个女儿还是个市长。他生活在Padova的郊区。还不知道怎么染上的病毒。
Padova是威尼托大区的一个很有名的古城。这地方有一个礼拜堂,里面的壁画非常珍贵算“文艺复兴的序曲“,相当于意大利的敦煌莫高窟。

Padova也是大学城。Padova大学是世界上最古老的大学之一,也是现代解剖学乃至现代医学的发源地。帕多瓦大学有世界上第一个解剖剧院,就是下面一个解剖台,旁边围着好几层人观看的地方。

介绍这个就是强调这里真的不是缺医少药,落后无知的地方。

帕多瓦的医学是很厉害的:“伽利略在這裡教授數學,並傳播其新的定量方法,後者亦對醫學影響深遠。William Harvey —— 全面闡明人類血液循環系統的第一人 —— 曾在這裡讀醫;Santorio Santorio 教授發明了溫度計;解剖學教授 Giovanni Battista Morgagni 在 18 世紀建立了現代解剖病理學;全球首次人類心臟移植手術亦是在 1985 年於帕多瓦進行。”
https://www.cup.com.hk/2019/02/14/italy-padua-birthplace-modern-medicine/

5 第二例死亡是伦巴第大区的一个女性。据传第3条那个年轻男患者去医院就诊的时候,这个女性也去了医院。怀疑是这么在医院交叉感染上的。
6 意大利紧急封锁了几个村庄。目前已经检测出其他几个居民阳性。高位区域的火车停运,学校紧急停课,足球比赛取消。没错,足球赛都取消了!
主教把Mass 天主教弥撒时候那个喝口酒吃个饼,就是所说的领圣体,都紧急。。叫停了。。。
有人抬杠说啥只有中国用封城的手段bla bla。现在来了,人家意大利也封城了。。。当然你可以继续抬杠说意大利封的地方都是郊区小town,不是大城市。

烈性传染病面前控制传染源是第一!没有搞清楚传染方式之前,封城,是必要的。当然封城必须保障民生基础供应。武汉的问题是保障做的不好,不是封城的决定不对。不对的是,封的太晚。

意大利首相表态,必要的话会派军队来控制疫情。 (见第二页机器翻译新闻)
摘抄:
"these are measures extraordinary that allow us to intervene to prevent individuals who are in the outbreak areas from leaving the Municipality ", as happened today when it was discovered that a man had escaped from Codogno's isolation to go to Montefusco, in the province of Avellino, where he was placed in quarantine with his family. The violation of the provision of entry and exit from the outbreak areas of the Coronavirus (whose radius has been widened) will be controlled "by the forces of the order and if necessary by the armed forces "and those who do not comply with the decree" will be subject to a penalty, according to article 650 of the Criminal Code.

7 伦巴第,威尼托都是非常富裕,居民生活条件优秀的地方。这两个大区加上都灵所在的皮埃蒙特大区,是意大利的经济龙头。经济水平差不多相当于奥地利。得益于奥匈帝国的好底子,这里的文化水平也非常高. 不要和意大利南方的混为一谈。。。所以现在整个欧洲人心惶惶,这么发达的地方都可以治不好,别的地方可。。。

8 最新消息 Turin都灵也有一个男子确诊了。他和3中的运动健将确诊男子 在几天前的马拉松中接触过。 好了。。。意大利北方基本都有了。。。

9 想了解信息的可以看这个地方https://www.gazzetta.it/Altri-Mondi/22-02-2020/allarme-coronavirus-morto-veneto-altri-20-casi-accertati-quarantena-obbligatoria-paesi-isolati-3601143393527.shtml?refresh_ce-cp
里面说得可详细了。我会在后面的楼贴一个英文翻译
意大利北方到现在还是很有自治的传统,重视城市这个单位,每个地方的市长表态都是很重要的。。。

10 据说伦巴第大区的所有酒吧以及类似娱乐场所都不允许晚上开门了。。。堪称宵禁。。。米兰可是年轻人们很high的一个地方。

11 说起来很high这个事情。前几天意呆男人的某个采访视频火了。
记者问:现在有人确诊了你们慌么?
呆众:不慌,我们喝这个酒来抵抗它!
目测桌子上每人一大杯Aperol or Campari 鸡尾酒。唔。这东西就是意大利的gin&tonic. (Aperol原产于Padova 夏季超级流行)
说起来gin&tonic是从药酒来的。gin是杜松子酒,成分有退烧止痛的作用。tonic是奎宁水,说起来奎宁类的的确确有治疗新冠病毒的效果,比如现在国内吃的氯喹。大家可以喝一些。。。

---- 说些乱七八糟的---

瘟疫对于欧洲人民来说是刻在基因里,写在抗体里,听在传说里,看在教堂里,深入到文化的一个记忆。每个城市都有什么黑死病纪念柱,黑死病传说,各种瘟疫的鬼故事。读书有十日谈,喝酒有gin&tonic, 什么人骨教堂,玛丽金小巷,威尼斯的鸟嘴面具,etc...

黑死病对于意大利人民来说尤为沉重深刻。原因也不难理解,黑死病肆虐的时候亚平宁半岛是欧洲经济文化中心。繁荣的城市和贸易让他们受灾更深,文化繁荣让他们留下更多的记录。

欧洲的恐怖故事氛围,传统上大概就分 瘟疫黑死病类 和 宗教裁判所类两种... 嗯 还有匈牙利吸血鬼 = =
PS: 武汉1月底最混乱的时候,有些殡仪馆车搬运尸袋的视频。Twitter网友看到,直接就是一句 “Bring out your dead" . 这就是传说中黑死病时期,每天早上都有收尸的人拉着小车来走街串巷收死人的吆喝口号。

---这是前话---

1. 有人说什么中国才会做封城这种事情。错❌。封城是西方社会,尤其是欧洲搞出来的,最有名的就是米兰通过封城逃过黑死病劫难的故事。

2. 如果了解这些故事,就会理解为什么烈性传染病的尸体,遗物必须焚烧处理。

3. 米兰一直是欧洲的重要交通枢纽,北上过阿尔卑斯山到达日耳曼德意志区域,向西区萨伏依/法国,向南亚平宁,向东去东欧巴尔干。多战之地。城墙修的厚实。黑死病来袭的时候,城里还是出现了三家人感染黑死病。米兰大主教下令紧闭城门,只留一扇小门供极少人通行。对于染病的家庭,直接修了一堵墙把他们围了进去自生自灭。

4. 威尼斯帝国当年是地中海的霸主,贸易是支柱。威尼斯不舍得停止通航。于是要求所有船只必须连人带船隔离40天之后才可以下人卸货。当时的人已经意识到人体是传染源。但万万没想到黑死病可以通过老鼠和跳蚤传播。于是,某一只船上的老鼠跑了下来。威尼斯沦陷。有人说威尼斯死了一半人口,也有的说是三分之二。人口密集的威尼斯变成了死亡之城,人们把尸体丢弃到附近的一个岛上,到了后来连贵族也得不到一个墓碑只是草草丢上去了事。至今,你仍能在那里捡到各种各样的骨头。

每年2月威尼斯狂欢节里会有很多人装扮成“瘟疫医生”的形象,带上鸟嘴面具。鸟嘴面具就是当时医生的N95口罩,长长的鸟嘴里面赛上各种草药香料来“过滤”空气。

威尼斯帝国当年掌管马耳他岛,后来在马耳他岛建立了世界上第一个专业“隔离岛”用于隔离来往的水手。隔离岛Lazaretto就是典型威尼斯话。Quarantine隔离这个词也来自于威尼斯话的40.

恩,因为新冠突然爆发,威尼斯提前两天结束了狂欢节。。。

5 每个意大利人都学过薄伽丘十日谈。嗯,就是讲1348年佛罗伦萨黑死病的时候大家逃到别墅躲避瘟疫时候讲的故事。。。

--------
说一点我想说的

从1月17号歪哥发表著名主题之后,我就在refresh我的这些看到过的记忆。
瘟疫很可怕,更可怕的是如果瘟疫蔓延之后,社会会失控。委婉的说就是人道主义灾难。
瘟疫是可怕的,你看不到它,它无孔不入。这比枪炮都可怕。

霍乱虽然拉稀痛苦,但是病程短,一般来说一天就死了。
黑死病一般三天,浑身出现血块,变黑,死状痛苦。
这次的新冠,如果说是心脏猝死的还算不太遭罪,如果最后呼吸困难,那真是非常痛苦。

我们看到曾经的瘟疫来临的时候人类会做什么

1 用砖把疫情爆发点砌起来。自生自灭。
2 把病人赶到废弃的居住点,提供有限的药物。
3 发现疫情用火烧掉爆发点
4 无人维持秩序,可以维持的人也死了,逃了。于是社会失去秩序。

--- 我跟父母说这些的时候,他们说,这些都是古代了,现在有现代医学,有药,有blablabla...

我就认真的问一句,
你为什么觉得,现在比过去对待病毒的办法更有效?你觉得提高了多少?
你为什么觉得,现在真的比过去强了那么多?100年后的人看待2020年的种种,会不会和我们看这些“古代瘟疫”的感受一样?

-------------- Some updates -----
12 意大利疫情又名“一个意大利男人的社交生活”一个优秀的联合利华员工上班期间辛勤的工作
忙碌完一天跟同事打牙祭
工作之余会踢踢足球
坚持锻炼身体,隔壁小镇跑步比赛,完成马拉松挑战自我。
发现疫情严重,参加红十字会训练提升自己
偶尔到夜店放纵一下。
一不小心变成了意大利一号病人。。。

韩国邪教徒吃我十字架,看看谁才是地球最强

作者:被洗脑群众
链接:https://www.zhihu.com/question/373940096/answer/1032479928
来源:知乎
著作权归作者所有。商业转载请联系作者获得授权,非商业转载请注明出处。

13 2/23 奥地利真是牢记黑死病教训,表现得比意大利还胆小。。。今天一辆从威尼斯桑塔露琪亚站去慕尼黑中央火车站的EuroCity火车上了新闻头条。两个德国女乘客出现了发烧症状,并在经过维罗纳的时候下车了。火车在意奥边境通过Brenner山口时,奥地利人听说了这个事情,吓尿了,叫车在意大利侧待命。。。后面的另一个EuroCity经过的时候也被拦了下来。几个小时过后,排除了新冠嫌疑,奥地利人才重新开放Brenner山口。。。
这里科普下地理。意大利北面是阿尔卑斯山,想翻过山的话,比较热门的一条路就是走Brenner山口。
维罗纳出发向北,经过Brenner山口进入奥地利,经过因斯布鲁克跨国因河,再向北可进入德国,到达慕尼黑。
一站的时候意大利对抗奥匈帝国,在这些山头里面打了好几年游击战。。。堪称游击战鼻祖。。。

 

🔥 最新回帖

梅干茶泡饭
213 楼
昨天意大利检察官开始调查一号患者处理上是否有失误 今天当地医院开始甩锅 While Italy is facing the emergency situation dictated by the spread of Coronavirus, the circumstances that would have led to the spread of one of the most important outbreaks, that of Lodigiano, are becoming increasingly clear. According to Massimo Lombardo, director of the Lodi healthcare company, the "case 1" patient - the 38-year-old still hospitalized, in stable conditions, at the Pavia hospital - when he first came to the Codogno emergency room , «He came to the emergency room of Codogno Hospital for the first time on February 18without presenting any criteria that could have identified it as a "suspected case" or "probable case" of Coronavirus infection according to the indications of the ministerial circular of 27 January 2020 ». "During the access," writes Lombardo again, "he underwent the necessary checks and therapy; however, he decided to go home despite the prudent proposal of hospitalization. " « On the night between 18 and 19 February », «patient 1» then returned «to the emergency room of the same hospital for a worsening of the symptoms : he is therefore hospitalized in the medical ward where the worsening of the clinical conditions determined the resuscitator intervention on the morning of 20 Februaryand the simultaneous hospitalization in intensive care ». And it is only at this point - after the young man was visited by relatives, friends and many doctors in the medical ward - that "talking to his wife, the resuscitator is informed of a dinner, held in late January, at which Case 1 would have participated and where a friend who had returned from China was present ». "But even the latter fact, according to the protocols of the ministry" - explains Lombardo - "did not classify" Case 1 "as" suspect case "or" probable case "". According to what was rebuilt by the Corriere here, 36 hours passed between the moment when "patient 1" entered the emergency room for the second time (3.12 on 19 February) and the time when the swab was carried out (around 16 on 20 February). In reality, the guidelines of the Ministry of Health of 22 January on who should be subjected to the swab, say that it is also to be treated as a suspect case "a person who experiences an unusual or unexpected clinical course, especially a sudden deterioration despite adequate treatment" . And pneumonia for a healthy and sporty 38-year-old can actually be. But the new version of the ministerial guidelines of January 27 had canceled that sentence and provided for checks only for those who had ties to China. The medical records of patient 1 - as reported by the Ansa agency - have now been seized by the Carabinieri of the Nas of Piacenza. The Public Prosecutor of Lodi has opened a file, currently against unknown persons. https://www.corriere.it/cronache/20_febbraio_26/coronavirus-paziente-1-rifiuto-ricovero-codogno-ricostruzione-d187209e-58bc-11ea-8e3a-a0c8564bd6c7.shtml
梅干茶泡饭
212 楼
Black Death 'Plague doctors' procession in Venice People in Venice have taken part in the annual Plague Doctors procession - a tradition that has taken on new meaning as fears over coronavirus grip northern Italy. Wearing masks and black clocks, party-goers walked through Saint Mark's Square on Tuesday night recalling the Black Death that swept through medieval Europe. On Tuesday Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte called for calm. “It’s time to turn down the tone, we need to stop panic,” he said. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-51628990
x
xwlbo
211 楼
特别喜欢楼主的点,全是启发人生的,很重要的。很棒的文字和思想。
梅干茶泡饭
210 楼
我实在忍不住了,要8一下。楼主你是男的吧?这个id不是一直是你的吧?以前对这个id 也有印象,完全不是现在这么高水平呀。
股动 发表于 2/25/2020 5:04:50 PM

我当然是女的啊。。。。。。。

说明我的知识水平提高了呗
股动
209 楼
我实在忍不住了,要8一下。楼主你是男的吧?这个id不是一直是你的吧?以前对这个id 也有印象,完全不是现在这么高水平呀。

 

🛋️ 沙发板凳

a
awesome010
欧洲以前折腾这些的历史可长了。唉。
梅干茶泡饭
欧洲以前折腾这些的历史可长了。唉。
awesome010 发表于 2/22/2020 8:48:15 PM

其实中国瘟疫的历史也很多很可怕

但是中国朝代改朝换代的比较多,故事更多。

欧洲很少改朝换代,打仗也是今天打仗明天种地这种规模,大仗没几次,所以瘟疫的故事就鹤立鸡群了。。。
a
awesome010
回复 3楼梅干茶泡饭的帖子 这次要真是长久携带病毒可怎么收场。现在国内已经是快好了可以指点别处的氛围了。
政治科代表
赞👍🏻,很好的科普贴。专业人士?
梅干茶泡饭
我一直想去帕多瓦。这地方不失为威尼斯发大水的时候的一个plan B。没想到竟然在新闻上这样出现! 摘抄一段网上的介绍: 市中心的博宮(Palazzo del Bo)作為帕多瓦大學的核心建築,乃醫學得到系統性研究進而發展成一門現代科學的地方,16 世紀時 Andreas Vesalius 更於逾 500 人面前,在大學内院進行系統性人體解剖。他在 1537 年出任此校的解剖和外科系主任,並在 1543 年出版革命性作品「人體構造(De Humani Corporis Fabrica Libri Septem)」。這套共有 7 本書的系列,以前所未有的細節闡述人體如何運作,並在他本人的監督下,由提香(Titian)的工作室繪畫插圖加以說明。 當時除了學生和教授,貴族、貴賓甚至貴族女士都會出席點有燭光的解剖活動,在最高的一層階級甚至會有小提琴演奏,好讓場內氣氛沒那麼難受。解剖通常會在冬季進行,尤其是狂歡節時期。因為當時仍對人體解剖存在一定禁忌,所以在群眾放縱的時刻,社會民德(mores)相對寬容之時,進行解剖面對的壓力相對較少。
S
Summer_Breeze
这个科普贴真好,谢谢
m
mindstorm
再治愈一次,这样就治愈2倍人。。。
l
lingling7
写的真好,赞楼主从疫情发生开始就发了很多很有意义的信息汇总和讨论贴
译码
好帖,只是看得有点怕,对整个局势略悲观。中国可以不顾一切用行政命令来调集全国医疗资源强行禁止居民出门,欧洲国家恐怕做不到
M
Mimi4
点👍楼主。其实大家真应该好好看看楼主的贴子,很多都对新冠肺炎有实际帮助,比那些吵个没完没了的阶级斗争贴子强多了。
n
ninedragons
楼主太博学了 这个帖子好看又长知识
m
mannbo
六七百年前医疗是什么条件?那时的人们有人权的概念不?nm把现在的中国跟六七百年前的国家比,也好意思!能举一个世界上50年内的用“封城”来解决瘟疫的例子不?
梅干茶泡饭
六七百年前医疗是什么条件?那时的人们有人权的概念不?nm把现在的中国跟六七百年前的国家比,也好意思!能举一个世界上50年内的用“封城”来解决瘟疫的例子不?
mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 9:24:52 PM


内蒙古隔段时间就出一次鼠疫
每次鼠疫都封城
只不过新闻不够吸引眼球你们看不到而已
上次甘肃鼠疫也是封城
甲级流行病 = 封城 这是常识谢谢。。。
落地无声
喜欢lz的帖子
i
isabel
谢谢楼主科普。
g
ghsf
古蒙古军队把得了鼠疫死掉的士兵的实体用投石器打进卡法城里,树上,街上到处都是黑乎乎的尸块,一下子黑死病就在法卡城散布开了。 这算是最早的细菌战了吧
梅干茶泡饭
Coronavirus in Milan and Turin. In Italy two deaths and 79 infections, 54 only in Lombardy

A 78 year old from Padua and a 75 year old woman in Codogno have died. Positive also a man from Sesto San Giovanni hospitalized at San Raffaele and an inhabitant of Mediglia. Then there is a 40 year old from Piedmont who works in Lombardy. The CoM approves "extraordinary measures". Conte: "Even the army to contain the infection"
February 22 - 7:53 am - MILAN
Italy experiences the coronavirus nightmare. There are two victims in our country. The first was called Adriano Trevisan, he was 78 years old and died last night shortly after 22.45. The second is a 77-year-old from Casalpusterlengo, linked to the case of Codogno. The epidemic continues to rise: 79 people are affected by the virus, 74 cases of positivity, of which 54 only in Lombardy, 17 in Veneto, 2 in Emilia Romagna, 2 in Lazio (one patient was discharged today) and one in Piedmont. 33 are hospitalized with symptoms, 18 are in intensive care and 11 in home isolation.

THE TWO CASES OF MILAN -

Among the Lombard ones there are also the first two cases of Milan. In the city, as confirmed also by the Governor Fontana, a 78-year-old man from Sesto San Giovanni was admitted to the San Raffaele hospital for five days. It is not yet clear whether it is connected to the Lodigiano infections or not, but the movements and contacts are being reconstructed, including those with doctors and patients during hospitalization. However, the first tests would not have given univocal results, therefore the counter-tests on biological samples are expected. And in the evening the confirmation of a second positivity in Milan also arrived: it is a 71-year-old man from Mediglia, south of the capital, who had come to the emergency room of the Vizzolo Predabissi hospital and then transferred to San Matteo of Pavia. The mayor of Mediglia had already ordered the

Coronavirus, in Lombardy 95 games postponed among amateurs

THE CASE OF TURIN -

In Turin, a 40-year-old man tested positive today: the patient had come into contact with the 38-year-old from Codogno at the Portofino-Santa Margherita Ligure half marathon on February 2, in which both had participated. Not only that, the man works in Cesano Boscone, just outside Milan, and seems to be a colleague of two people currently hospitalized in Lombardy. Certainly, as specified by the Piedmontese Health Department, "he had contacts with a family member of an infected person in Lombardy". To get to the workplace, according to what was communicated, he used the train on numerous occasions. The examination was performed at the Amedeo di Savoia hospital, the regional reference center. The man, married with two children aged 8 and 10, "has a little fever but is in good health", said the governor of Piedmont Alberto Cirio. The family was immediately placed under observation, but the basketball companions with whom the 40-year-old had played on Wednesday were also recalled.

CONTE: "A BILL THAT LIMITS CIRCULATION" -

Such a surge of cases has prompted Prime Minister Conte to convene an Extraordinary Council of Ministers at the headquarters of the Civil Protection of Rome in which a decree law has been approved which obviously aims to "contain contagions by limiting circulation", "these are measures extraordinary that allow us to intervene to prevent individuals who are in the outbreak areas from leaving the Municipality ", as happened today when it was discovered that a man had escaped from Codogno's isolation to go to Montefusco, in the province of Avellino, where he was placed in quarantine with his family. The violation of the provision of entry and exit from the outbreak areas of the Coronavirus (whose radius has been widened) will be controlled "by the forces of the order and if necessary by the armed forces "and those who do not comply with the decree" will be subject to a penalty, according to article 650 of the Criminal Code. These are precautionary measures to protect the local community itself. We trust the citizens with a pact of trust. For a short period, a couple of weeks, some restrictions will not prevent the lives of people who will actually benefit from it. "About 50 thousand Italians will be affected by the measures launched by the government to stem the spread of coronavirus, which he added that "there are no prerequisites there are no prerequisites for requesting the suspension of the Schengen Treaty". These are precautionary measures to protect the local community itself. We trust the citizens with a pact of trust. For a short period, a couple of weeks, some restrictions will not prevent the lives of people who will actually benefit from it. "About 50 thousand Italians will be affected by the measures launched by the government to stem the spread of coronavirus, which he added that "there are no prerequisites there are no prerequisites for requesting the suspension of the Schengen Treaty". These are precautionary measures to protect the local community itself. We trust the citizens with a pact of trust. For a short period, a couple of weeks, some restrictions will not prevent the lives of people who will actually benefit from it. "About 50 thousand Italians will be affected by the measures launched by the government to stem the spread of coronavirus, which he added that "there are no prerequisites there are no prerequisites for requesting the suspension of the Schengen Treaty".

HUNT FOR PATIENT ZERO -

Codogno's patient, Mattia M., is in stable condition and was transferred to the San Matteo hospital in Pavia, while his parents were taken from their home in Castiglione d'Adda this evening and taken with bio-containment ambulance to the Sacco. In the meantime, two cases of positivity were found in Piacenza, all related to the Lodigiano: one is the nurse who had performed the triage on the 38 year old in the Codogno hospital. Here too closed schools, as well as public and private sports facilities, until Tuesday 25 February. And the bishop of Piacenza forbade the exchange of peace during mass. But from the tests on the tests of the Fiorenzuola d'Arda manager who returned from China, who was supposed to have infected the 38-year-old, it emerged that the man, already negative at the first exams, never had the coronavirus. "He didn't develop antibodies," said Deputy Minister of Health Pierpaolo Sileri. So he is not responsible for spreading the virus in the Lodi area and we go back to looking for Patient zero.

THE OUTBREAK -
As the contagion is developing, including the Piedmontese case, there is now "confirmation that the area of ​​the lower Lodigiano is the center of an outbreak", as also the Lombard Welfare Councilor Giulio Gallera said, even if a hook is missing between the Lombard and Venetian outbreaks.
There are two victims of the coronavirus in Italy: a 78 year old from Veneto and a woman residing in Lombardy. Former owner of a small construction company, Adriano Trevisan of Vo & rsquo; Euganeo died at the Schiavonia hospital (Padua), where he was hospitalized. In Veneto two other people are infected: a friend of the victim, also from Vo & rsquo; Euganeo, and a 67 year old from Dolo, in intensive care. At least 27 cases of infection in Lombardy: cases found in the Lodi area and in Cremona, where schools were closed. The 'index case' of the Lodigiano would be a 38-year-old from Codogno, in stable conditions

THE TWO VICTIMS -
In hospital for 15 days, the father of three children, including a former mayor of the country, Trevisan was immediately judged in serious condition by the doctors. He was one of the two infected in Padua, where a 67-year-old countryman of his is also positive, being treated in the infectious disease department of the Padua hospital, which according to the first updates of the morning is in stationary condition. The governor of Veneto Luca Zaia ordered the emptying of the hospital of Schiavonia. In this hospital, some tests were positive among the 600 swabs already performed. The 77-year-old died in Lombardy, Giovanna Carminati, suffered from pathologies previous to the coronavirus, which was diagnosed post-mortem. The woman has already been buried for "sanitation reasons".

THIRD CASE IN VENETO-
A third case of coronavirus infection has emerged in Veneto. He is a 67-year-old man from Dolo, now hospitalized in intensive care in Padua. The patient passed first to the emergency room in Mirano (Venice), then to the resuscitation of Dolo (Venice), and following a worsening he was transferred to Padua. "We await the other tests this morning, at the moment we do not yet understand how the infections occurred. We have prepared the maximum alert", said the governor of Veneto Luca Zaia who then reported: "During the night, the Civil Protection of the Veneto set up 12 tents for a maximum of 96 places outside the Schiavonia hospital as a precaution, available to health workers and medical personnel". The governor then arranged the precautionary closure of all the universities of the Veneto for the next week, while guidelines on the Venice Carnival are awaited.

The "bearer" could be a man who has returned from China, who however does not have the virus according to the tests carried out
The trip to China, the first symptoms of hospitalization: this is how the virus spread

GALLERA: "IT'S NOT A PANDEMIC"-

"It is not a pandemic situation, for now there are no reasons why measures of any kind are taken in the rest of the region from a health point of view", stated Councilor Gallera before the positive outcome of the patient admitted to San Raffaele emerged.
SALA: "MILAN DOES NOT CLOSE"- And speaking of the situation in Milan, the prefect announced that at the moment public services will not be closed, however advising to reduce social gatherings, encourage teleworking where possible and not go to the emergency room except in cases of absolute emergency. All confirmed also by the mayor Sala: "Some citizens ask me to close public offices. So why not the stadiums? Or the companies? Or the shops? What is the difference? We are following this health crisis with responsibility, we do not underestimate nothing, but we don't even want to stir up alarms. Tomorrow morning we will meet again in the Prefecture and we will check what to do. If it is appropriate to take specific measures, we will do it. "

RETURN FROM JAPAN-

The Air Force aircraft with the nineteen Italians from Japan landed at 6.37 at the Pratica di Mare airport. The compatriots, after finishing the visits, will be transferred to the Army Sports Center in Cecchignola.
TWO RECOVERED TO SPALLANZANI - Good news from Spallanzani in Rome: two patients, the 29-year-old researcher and the husband of the Chinese couple, recovered, testing negative. The young man was discharged late in the morning. His wife is still in intensive care, but she is also improving.

MATTARELLA AND THE "SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY"-
"I trust that sense of responsibility and unity of commitment will ensure the best and most effective response to protect the health of our fellow citizens - said the President of the Republic Sergio Mattarella -. I wish to express gratitude to the doctors, health personnel, researchers, women and to the men of the Civil Protection and the Armed Forces, to those who in these days are working hard, with self-sacrifice and generosity, to face and stem the risk of the spread of the coronavirus. I am close to those who have been affected and to their communities that live moments of understandable anxiety. I address a thought to the two victims and express solidarity with their families ".

THE MAYOR OF CASALPUSTERLENGO-
"We'll get over this too ... Come on Casale! Come on Codogno! Come on Castiglione! Come on Lodigiano!": So wrote in a Facebook post Elia Delmiglio, mayor of Casalpusterlengo one of the Municipalities 'closed' for coronavirus. In his post many comments of solidarity: from Bolzano to Ferrara. "We have to stick to the rules of sanitation and sperem in ben" writes someone. "Of course we will overcome everything ... We won against the Lanzichenecchi in Milan in 1600". Then there are those who are convinced that the borders should have been closed while others ask questions about the order to close the activities and how to behave. "The problem - someone underlines - is that if citizens are invited to stay at home, employers do not justify you ... and therefore no one remains at home ...

TRAINS STOPPED IN RISK AREAS -
In the meantime, efforts are being made to minimize risks. Following the Lombardy Region ordinance indicating the "ban on public transport", the trains will not stop at the Codogno, Maleo and Casalpusterlengo stations. Trenord knows. In particular, the trains of the Milan-Piacenza line do not stop at Codogno and Casalpusterlengo; Mantua-Cremona-Milan trains will not stop in Codogno. The service is totally suspended on the Pavia-Codogno and Cremona-Codogno lines. Following the ordinance, ticket office activities will also be suspended at the Codogno and Casalpusterlengo stations. The measure will be in force until further notice by the authority.

SCHOOLS CLOSED IN CREMONA -
The Municipality of Cremona, in agreement with the Prefecture as a precautionary and preventive measure with respect to the spread of Coronovaris, has arranged for today to close the schools of every order and grade in the city. This was announced by the Cremonese administration, which is also considering the suspension of sporting events and events related to Carnival. "We are in close contact with the health authorities and we do our utmost to protect the health of citizens, the Municipality said.

THE OTHER REGIONS -
Friuli Venezia Giulia decreed a state of emergency until 31 July to "face the health risk of Coronavirus, also in consideration of the first cases of contagion in Italy and in particular in the nearby region of Veneto and following the meeting of the Committee Civil Protection operative took place today ". For Campania, the president Vincenzo De Luca, in agreement with the Regional Scholastic Office, invited the directors of the schools to suspend the organization of the school trips for precautionary reasons.

IN THE WORLD -
The World Health Organization (WHO) has expressed concern about "what has been reported from Italy and South Korea and how the virus is spreading to other parts of the world". This was stated by WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus during a morning briefing with the African Union. At present, China has reported 75,569 cases to the WHO, including 2,239 deaths. Outside China, there are 1,200 cases in 26 countries. Four victims are reported in Iran, three in Japan, two in Italy, Hong Kong and South Korea. One in Taiwan, the Philippines and France.

SOUTH KOREA IS SHAKING -
So much fear also in South Korea where the new infections increase out of all proportion: now the total number of people infected is 433, while two are the dead. The South Korean Center for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) has announced this. The highest number of cases, as many as 103, were recorded in the North Gyeongsang province. Of the 142 new cases, 92 are related to the Cheongdo Daenam hospital in Northern Gyeongsang province, and 38 to the Shincheonji religious group. The government of South Korea is taking a series of measures to try to contain the spread of the virus, closing public places in the capital and creating "special areas for treatments". At least three cases have been reported in the armed forces.
https://www.gazzetta.it/Altri-Mondi/22-02-2020/allarme-coronavirus-morto-veneto-altri-20-casi-accertati-quarantena-obbligatoria-paesi-isolati-3601143393527.shtml?refresh_ce-cp
谷歌翻译
T
Theash
哎 病毒 最后考验的可能是人性。 全世界蔓延
梅干茶泡饭
好消息就是最初在罗马确诊的那对中国游客情况已经很好了 丈夫已经出院 妻子也情况不错
梅干茶泡饭
意大利人生活中最重要的就是 咖啡 妈妈 足球 ----- 嗯 这周日伦巴第和威尼托大区任何体育比赛都取消了 https://www.gazzetta.it/Altri-Mondi/22-02-2020/allarme-coronavirus-morto-veneto-altri-20-casi-accertati-quarantena-obbligatoria-paesi-isolati-3601143393527.shtml Even the sport , inevitably, stops for emergency Coronavirus after the first cases of contagion in Italy, Lombardy and Veneto . And tomorrow no sporting event will take place tomorrow in Veneto and Lombardy (starting with the three Serie A games Inter-Sampdoria , Atalanta-Sassuolo and Verona-Cagliari), announced tonight - after the extraordinary CDM - the Minister of Sport Vincenzo Spadafora. In a letter sent to the President of CONI, Giovanni Malagò, Spadadora - on the basis of the decisions made tonight by the government - asked No. 1 of Italian sport "to be interpreter at all the competent sports bodies of the Government's invitation to suspend all sporting events of all levels and disciplines scheduled in the Lombardy and Veneto regions for Sunday 23 February 2020 ».
s
stacych8008
北意大利的发达程度紧跟瑞士,都灵米兰类似于上海广州的地位了。能理解意大利政府的紧张。
h
henshuhen
六七百年前医疗是什么条件?那时的人们有人权的概念不?nm把现在的中国跟六七百年前的国家比,也好意思!能举一个世界上50年内的用“封城”来解决瘟疫的例子不?
mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 9:24:52 PM


这次中共处理武汉肺炎的水平来看 要人权没人权 要医疗没医疗 和几百年前也没差什么 最近还一直在建的方舱和一百年前的西班牙流感年代一摸一样
梅干茶泡饭
北意大利的发达程度紧跟瑞士,都灵米兰类似于上海广州的地位了。能理解意大利政府的紧张。
stacych8008 发表于 2/22/2020 10:13:51 PM

都灵那边总是闹独立 主要分歧是咱自己闹 还是拉上伦巴第一起闹。。。。

伦巴第也总觉得亏了

威尼托更是了,百姓无不怀念威尼斯帝国。。,

政府紧张啊 怕啊 一个处理不好要命啊

而且人家那是民众有强烈的主观愿望希望采取强制手段。。。
o
oceanmist
正因为知道欧洲的黑死病史,所以版上大骂武汉死人后家属连面都见不上,我都懒的吭声。这么烈性的传染病时期,尸体是立即火化的。ebola之所以能传染就是非洲的习俗其他人要touch尸体办丧礼。那基本丧礼办完人也都感染了。到哪里人性都那样,你看版上谩骂举报围追堵截国内返回的人。如果真的大爆发,还不知道会怎么对待得病的人。我这周开始囤食物了。你可以说我杞人忧天,但我就是喜欢早做准备。反正少聚会,少逛街。网上买菜。
梅干茶泡饭
正因为知道欧洲的黑死病史,所以版上大骂武汉死人后家属连面都见不上,我都懒的吭声。这么烈性的传染病时期,尸体是立即火化的。ebola之所以能传染就是非洲的习俗其他人要touch尸体办丧礼。那基本丧礼办完人也都感染了。到哪里人性都那样,你看版上谩骂举报围追堵截国内返回的人。如果真的大爆发,还不知道会怎么对待得病的人。我这周开始囤食物了。你可以说我杞人忧天,但我就是喜欢早做准备。反正少聚会,少逛街。网上买菜。
oceanmist 发表于 2/22/2020 10:18:53 PM

你说的对
古代更狠 有时候瘟疫来了 有病的家里不管活得死的一起一屋子烧掉。。。。。

你看最近的报道

刚开始么 是有人大骂什么强制火化 怎么不给见一面

一周之后就是武汉的人抱怨人都死了半天了,社区如果再不来家里收走尸体,就给社区抬过去。。。还有把死者衣服用品扔到外面的。。。

人啊 适应能力还是很强的
A
AlaskaNYC
谢谢LZ的好贴。 记得LZ在欧洲,总是有欧洲的第一手消息。
白菜87
六七百年前医疗是什么条件?那时的人们有人权的概念不?nm把现在的中国跟六七百年前的国家比,也好意思!能举一个世界上50年内的用“封城”来解决瘟疫的例子不?
mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 9:24:52 PM

到今天,全世界对待瘟疫只能靠隔离,等育苗根本来不及。
m
mannbo


内蒙古隔段时间就出一次鼠疫
每次鼠疫都封城
只不过新闻不够吸引眼球你们看不到而已
上次甘肃鼠疫也是封城
甲级流行病 = 封城 这是常识谢谢。。。

梅干茶泡饭 发表于 2/22/2020 9:27:59 PM


内蒙古和甘肃不还是中国吗?封城是不人道的粗暴手段,除了中世纪的意大利, 现代国家还有过谁?
m
mannbo

到今天,全世界对待瘟疫只能靠隔离,等育苗根本来不及。

白菜87 发表于 2/22/2020 10:36:15 PM


隔离感染者和健康者是对的。封城不一样,封城是不人道的隔离方式,因为它根本不区分感染了的和没感染的,把几百万没有感染的人剥夺出城的权利,限制在疫区,而疫区当时里面的条件根本不具备救治感染者和防护被感染者,从而造成了大量冤死的市民。
g
gvcc
难得见到华人这么有干货的帖子,顶一下。
欧洲对传染病有刻苦铭心的记忆。当年的黑死病,也就是鼠疫,在欧洲肆虐3个多世纪,造成5000万+人死亡。
梅干茶泡饭


内蒙古和甘肃不还是中国吗?封城是不人道的粗暴手段,除了中世纪的意大利, 现代国家还有过谁?

mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 10:36:50 PM


大哥。。。你看一楼。。。。人家意大利现在就封城了啊。。。。2020.。。。。。。。。。。
m
mannbo


大哥。。。你看一楼。。。。人家意大利现在就封城了啊。。。。2020.。。。。。。。。。。

梅干茶泡饭 发表于 2/22/2020 10:53:36 PM


大姐,你自己看看清楚,意大利封城跟中国封武汉一样吗?是不许里面的人出来吗?你把第一页里不让疫区人出城的那句找出来我看看?
梅干茶泡饭


大姐,你自己看看清楚,意大利封城跟中国封武汉一样吗?是不许里面的人出来吗?你把第一页里不让疫区人出城的那句找出来我看看?

mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 10:56:51 PM

"these are measures extraordinary that allow us to intervene to prevent individuals who are in the outbreak areas from leaving the Municipality ", as happened today when it was discovered that a man had escaped from Codogno's isolation to go to Montefusco, in the province of Avellino, where he was placed in quarantine with his family. The violation of the provision of entry and exit from the outbreak areas of the Coronavirus (whose radius has been widened) will be controlled "by the forces of the order and if necessary by the armed forces "and those who do not comply with the decree" will be subject to a penalty, according to article 650 of the Criminal Code.
梅干茶泡饭


大姐,你自己看看清楚,意大利封城跟中国封武汉一样吗?是不许里面的人出来吗?你把第一页里不让疫区人出城的那句找出来我看看?

mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 10:56:51 PM

我怕上面那个机器翻译意大利语的看着太累 这里有个BBC的

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51602007

Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte announced the emergency plan late on Saturday as the number of cases rose to 79. The measures were imposed after two Italian citizens were confirmed to have died from the virus. A dozen towns in the northern regions of Lombardy and Veneto have been effectively quarantined under the plan. Around 50,000 people from towns in two northern regions have been asked to stay at home by authorities. Mr Conte said it would now be forbidden to enter or leave the outbreak areas, unless special permission was granted.

Conte 就是首相
L
Lightwinds
顶贴。这帖子质量高,有干货,有思想深度。
l
lingling7
果然是qurantine发源地,说封就封了,看到重症比率超过20%了
学习了,很好的科普贴
t
trudily
赞楼主
1
119ppp
这个是个应该加精高亮的神贴。
c
ca563

"these are measures extraordinary that allow us to intervene to prevent individuals who are in the outbreak areas from leaving the Municipality ", as happened today when it was discovered that a man had escaped from Codogno's isolation to go to Montefusco, in the province of Avellino, where he was placed in quarantine with his family. The violation of the provision of entry and exit from the outbreak areas of the Coronavirus (whose radius has been widened) will be controlled "by the forces of the order and if necessary by the armed forces "and those who do not comply with the decree" will be subject to a penalty, according to article 650 of the Criminal Code.

梅干茶泡饭 发表于 2/22/2020 11:00:15 PM

人家又看不懂英文
A
AprilCA
我还记得小时候读过的十日谈,霍乱时期的爱情。。。 瘟疫的惨状现在都有心理阴影。
梅干茶泡饭
这里的瘟疫,不象东方的瘟疫那样,病人鼻孔里一出鲜血,就必死无疑,却另有一种征兆。染病的男女,最初在鼠蹊间或是在胳肢窝下隆然肿起一个瘤来,到后来愈长愈大,就有一个小小的苹果,或是一个鸡蛋那样大小。一般人管这瘤叫“疫瘤”,不消多少时候,这死兆般的“疫瘤”就由那两个部分蔓延到人体各部分。这以后,病征又变了,病人的臂部、腿部,以至身体的其他各部分都出现了黑斑或是紫斑,有时候是稀稀疏疏的几大块,有时候又细又密;不过反正这都跟初期的毒瘤一样,是死亡的预兆。   任你怎样请医服药,这病总是没救的。也许这根本是一种不治之症,也许是由于医师学识浅薄,找不出真正的病源,因而也就拿不出适当的治疗方法来——当时许许多多对于医道一无所知的男女,也居然象受过训练的医师一样,行起医来了。总而言之,凡是得了这种病、侥幸治愈的人,真是极少极少,大多数病人都在出现“疫瘤”的三天以内就送了命;而且多半都没有什么发烧或是其他的症状。   这瘟病太可怕了,健康的人只要一跟病人接触,就染上了病,那情形仿佛干柴靠近烈火那样容易燃烧起来。不,情况还要严重呢,不要说走近病人,跟病人谈话,会招来致死的病症,甚至只要接触到病人穿过的衣服,摸过的东西,也立即会染上了病。   骇人听闻的事还有呢。要不是我,还有许多人眼见目睹,那么,种种事情即使是我从最可靠的人那儿听来的,我也不敢信以为真,别说是把它记录下来了。这一场瘟疫的传染可怕到这么一个程度,不仅是人与人之间会传染,就连人类以外的牲畜,只要一接触到病人、或是死者的什么东西,就染上了病,过不了多少时候,就死了,这种情形也是屡见不鲜。有一天,我亲眼看到有这么一回事:大路上扔着一堆破烂的衣服,分明是一个染病而死的穷人的遗物,这时候来了两头猪,大家知道,猪总是喜欢用鼻子去拱东西的,也是合该它们倒楣,用鼻子把那衣服翻了过来,咬在嘴里,乱嚼乱挥一阵,隔不了一会,这两头猪就不住地打起滚来,再过了一会儿,就象吃了毒药似的,倒在那堆衣服上死了。   活着的人们,每天看到这一类或大或小的惨事,心里就充满着恐怖和种种怪念头;到后来,几乎无论哪一个人都采取了冷酷无情的手段:凡是病人和病人用过的东西,一概避不接触,他们以为这样一来,自己的安全就可以保住了。   有些人以为唯有清心寡欲,过着有节制的生活,才能逃过这一场瘟疫。于是他们各自结了几个伴儿,拣些没有病人的洁净的宅子住下,完全和外界隔绝起来。他们吃着最精致的食品,喝着最美的酒,但总是尽力节制,绝不肯有一点儿过量。对外界的疾病和死亡的情形他们完全不闻不问,只是借音乐和其他的玩意儿来消磨时光。   也有些人的想法恰巧相反,以为唯有纵情欢乐、纵饮狂歌,尽量满足自己的一切欲望,什么都一笑置之,才是对付瘟疫的有效办法。他们当真照着他们所说的话实行起来,往往日以继夜地,尽情纵饮,从这家酒店逛到那家酒店,甚至一时兴来,任意闯进人家住宅,为所欲为。也没有人来阻拦他们,因为大家都是活了今天保不住明天,哪儿还顾得到什么财产不财产呢。所以大多数的住宅竟成了公共财产,哪一个过路人都可以大模大样地闯进去,只当是自己的家一般占用着。可是,尽管他们这样横冲直撞,对于病人还是避之唯恐不及。   浩劫当前,这城里的法纪和圣规几乎全都荡然无存了;因为神父和执法的官员,也不能例外,都死的死了,病的病了,要不就是连一个手底下人也没有,无从执行他们的职务了;因此,简直每个人都可以为所欲为。   还有好多人又采取了一种折衷的态度。他们既不象第一种人那样严格节制着自己的饮食,也不象第二种人那样大吃大喝、放荡不羁。他们虽然也满足自己的欲望,但是适可而止,他们并没有闭户不出,也到外面去走走,只不过手里总要拿些什么鲜花香草,或是香料之类,不时放到鼻子前去嗅一下,清一清神,认为要这样才能消除那充满在空气里的病人、药物、和尸体的气味。   有些人为了自身的安全,竟抱着一种更残忍的见解。说,要对抗瘟疫,只有一个办法——唯一的好办法,那就是躲开瘟疫。有了这种想法的男男女女,就只关心他们自己,其余的一概不管。他们背离自己的城市,丢下了自己的老家,自己的亲人和财产,逃到别的地方去——至少也逃到佛罗伦萨的郊外去,仿佛是天主鉴于人类为非作歹,一怒之下降下惩罚,这惩罚却只落在那些留居城里的人的头上,只要一走出城,就逃出了这场灾难似的。或者说,他们以为留住在城里的人们末日已到,不久就要全数灭亡了。   这些人的见解各有不同,却并没个个都死,也并没全都逃出了这场浩劫。各地都有好些各色各样的人在自身健康时,首先立下榜样,教人别去理会那得病的人,后来自己病倒了,也遭受人们的遗弃,没人看顾,就这样断了气。   真的,到后来大家你回避我,我回避你;街坊邻舍,谁都不管谁的事了,亲戚朋友几乎断绝了往来,即使难得说句话,也离得远远的。这还不算,这场瘟疫使得人心惶惶,竟至于哥哥舍弃弟弟,叔伯舍弃侄儿,姊妹舍弃兄弟,甚至妻子舍弃丈夫都是常有的事。最伤心、叫人最难以置信的,是连父母都不肯看顾自己的子女,好象这子女并非他们自己生下来似的。   因此许许多多病倒的男女都没人看顾,偶然也有几个朋友,出于慈悲心,来给他们一些安慰。不过这是极少数的;偶然也有些仆人贪图高额的工资,肯来服侍病人,但也很少很少,而且多半是些粗鲁无知的男女,并不懂得看护,只会替病人传递茶水等物,此外就只会眼看着病人死亡了。这些侍候病人的仆人,多半因此丧失了生命,枉自赚了那么些钱!   就因为一旦染了病,再也得不到邻舍亲友的看顾,仆人又这样难雇,就发生了一种闻所未闻的风气。那些奶奶小姐,不管本来怎么如花似玉,怎么尊贵,一旦病倒了,她就再也不计较雇用一个男子做贴身的仆人,也再不问他年老年少,都毫不在乎地解开衣裙,把什么地方都在他面前裸露出来,只当他是一个女仆。她们这样做也是迫于病情,无可奈何,后来有些女人保全了性命的,品性就变得不那么端庄,这也许是一个原因吧。   有许多病人,假如能得到好好的调理,本来可以得救,现在却都死去了。瘟疫的来势既然这么凶猛,病人又缺乏护理,叫呼不应,所以城里日日夜夜都要死去大批大批的人,那情景听着都叫人目瞪口呆,别说是当场看到了。至于那些幸而活着的人,迫于这样的情势,把许多古老的习俗都给改变过来了。   照向来的风俗说来(现在也还可以看到),人死了,亲友邻居家的女眷都得聚集在丧事人家,向死者的家属吊唁;那家的男子们就和邻居以及别处来的市民齐集在门口。随后神父来到,人数或多或少,要看那家的排场而定。棺材由死者的朋友抬着,大家点了一支蜡烛,拿在手里,还唱着挽歌,一路非常热闹,直抬到死者生前指定的教堂。但是由于瘟疫越来越猖獗,这习俗就算没有完全废除,也差不多近于废除了;代之而起的是一种新的风气。病人死了,不但没有女人们围绕着啜泣,往往就连断气的一刹那都没有一个人在场。真是难得有几个死者能得到亲属的哀伤和热泪,亲友们才不来哀悼呢——他们正在及时行乐,在欢宴,在互相戏谑呢。女人本是富于同情心的,可是现在为了要保全自己的生命,竟不惜违背了她们的本性,跟着这种风气走。   再说,人死了很少会有十个邻居来送葬;而来送葬的决不是什么有名望有地位的市民,却是些低三下四的人——他们自称是掘墓者;其实他们干这行当,完全是为了金钱,所以总是一抬起了尸架,匆匆忙忙就走,并不是送到死者生前指定的教堂,而往往送到最近的教堂就算完事。在他们前面走着五六个僧侣,手里有时还拿着几支蜡烛,有时一支都不拿。只要看到是空的墓穴,他们就叫掘墓人把死尸扔进去,再也不自找麻烦,郑重其事地替死者举行什么落葬的仪式了。   下层阶级,以至大部分的中层阶级,情形就更惨了。他们因为没有钱,也许因为存着侥幸的心理,多半留在家里,结果病倒的每天数以千计。又因为他们缺乏适当的医治,无人看护,几乎全都死了。白天也好,黑夜也好,总是有许多人倒毙在路上。许多人死在家里,直到尸体腐烂,发出了臭味,邻居们才知道他已经死了。   城市里就这样到处尸体纵横,附近活着的人要是找得到脚夫,就叫脚夫帮着把尸体抬出去,放在大门口;找不到脚夫,就自己动手,他们这样做并非出于恻隐之心,而是唯恐腐烂的尸体威胁他们的生存。每天一到天亮,只见家家户户的门口都堆满了尸体。这些尸体又被放上尸架,抬了出去,要是弄不到尸架,就用木板来抬。   一个尸架上常常载着两三具尸体。夫妻俩,或者父子俩,或者两三个兄弟合放在一个尸架上,成了一件很普通的事。人们也不知道有多少回看到两个神父,拿着一个十字架走在头里,脚夫们抬着三四个尸架,在后面跟着。常常会有这样的事情发生:神父只道要替一个人举行葬礼,却忽然来了六七具尸体,同时下葬,有时候甚至还不止这么些呢。再也没有人为死者掉泪,点起蜡烛给他送丧了;那时候死了一个人,就象现在死了一只山羊,不算一回事。本来呢,一个有智慧的人,在人生的道路上偶尔遭遇到几件不如意的事,也很难学到忍耐的功夫;而现在,经过了这场空前的浩劫,显然连最没有教养的人,对一切事情也都处之泰然了。   每天,甚至每小时,都有一大批一大批的尸体运到全市的教堂去,教堂的坟地再也容纳不下了,尤其是有些人家,按照习俗,要求葬在祖坟里面,情形更加严重。等坟地全葬满了,只好在周围掘一些又长又阔的深坑,把后来的尸体几百个几百个葬下去。就象堆积船舱里的货物一样,这些尸体,给层层叠叠地放在坑里。只盖着一层薄薄的泥土,直到整个坑都装满了,方才用土封起来。   当时整个城里的种种凄惨景象也不必一一细谈了,我只要再补说一句,当城内瘟疫横行的时候,郊外的市镇和乡村也并没逃过这一场浩劫,不过灾情不象城里那样声势浩大罢了。可怜的农民(以及他们的家人),在冷落的村子里,荒僻的田野中,一旦病倒了,既没有医生、也没有谁来看顾,随时倒毙在路上,在田里,或者死在家门口。他们死了,不象是死了一个人,倒象是死了一头牲畜。   城里的人们大难当前,丢下一切,只顾寻欢作乐;乡下的农民,自知死期已到,也再不愿意从事劳动,拿到什么就吃什么,从前他们在田园上、在牛羊上注下了多少心血,寄托过多少期望,现在再也顾不到了。这样,牛、驴子、绵羊、山羊、猪、家禽、还有人类的忠诚的伴侣——狗,被迫离开圈栏,在田里到处乱跑——田里的麦早该收割了,该打好收藏起来了,却没有一个人来过问一下。这些牲口,有许多好象赋有理性似的,白天在田野里吃饱了草料,一到天晚,虽然没有家人来赶,也会自动走回农庄来。   让我们再从乡村说回到城里吧。其实除了说天主对人类真是残酷到极点,还能怎么说呢(当然有些地方也得怪人类太狠心)?由于这场猛烈的瘟疫,由于人们对病人抱着恐怖心理,不肯出力照顾,或者根本不管,从三月到六月,佛罗伦萨城里,死了十万人以上。在瘟疫发生之前,谁也没想到过城里竟住着这么多人。   唉,宏伟的宫室,华丽的大厦,高大的宅第,从前达官贵妇出入如云,现在却十室九空,连一个最低微的仆从都找不到了!有多少显赫的姓氏、巨大的家产、富裕的产业遗下来没有人继承!有多少英俊的男子、美丽的姑娘、活泼的小伙子(就连盖伦、希波克拉底、伊斯克拉庇斯1都得承认他们的身子顶结实),在早晨还同亲友们一起吃点心,十分高兴,到了夜里,已到另一个世界去陪他们的祖先吃晚饭了。
d
deadend
同样从头到尾不觉得封城的决定是错误的。另外瘟疫这种事,摧毁的不仅是人的身体,还有人的意志力,包括人与人之间的信任—一切人性中好的方面,所以总是伴随人道主义灾难产生。 但是这次的疫情最不可饶恕的是三件事情,1. 十二月底甚至更早就知道了,压制新闻不说,还组织万人宴没有阻止春运;2 克扣各地救援物资。3 大力宣传中药。这三点简直是恶性杀人案件的范畴,罪大恶极。
o
oceanmist
同样从头到尾不觉得封城的决定是错误的。另外瘟疫这种事,摧毁的不仅是人的身体,还有人的意志力,包括人与人之间的信任—一切人性中好的方面,所以总是伴随人道主义灾难产生。
但是这次的疫情最不可饶恕的是三件事情,1. 十二月底甚至更早就知道了,压制新闻不说,还组织万人宴没有阻止春运;2 克扣各地救援物资。3 大力宣传中药。这三点简直是恶性杀人案件的范畴,罪大恶极。
deadend 发表于 2/22/2020 11:56:57 PM

我特别痛恨第一条。 病毒又不是隐瞒就能消失的,典型的掩耳盗铃。以为自己不说,问题就会消失。这是怎样的智障做出来的决策。这种智障怎么能执政,这害了千千万万的人。 这种人就该判刑。
m
minijing
回复 43楼梅干茶泡饭的帖子 看得整个人都不好了…
w
wacxg


隔离感染者和健康者是对的。封城不一样,封城是不人道的隔离方式,因为它根本不区分感染了的和没感染的,把几百万没有感染的人剥夺出城的权利,限制在疫区,而疫区当时里面的条件根本不具备救治感染者和防护被感染者,从而造成了大量冤死的市民。

mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 10:42:25 PM

现实很骨感,瘟疫传播快的,没办法区分感染没感染,只能按发病区封。中国这次封晚了,才祸害了全世界。
M
MiuuiM

我特别痛恨第一条。 病毒又不是隐瞒就能消失的,典型的掩耳盗铃。以为自己不说,问题就会消失。这是怎样的智障做出来的决策。这种智障怎么能执政,这害了千千万万的人。 这种人就该判刑。

oceanmist 发表于 2/23/2020 12:14:13 AM

然而很多国家都在 repeat 第一条
m
mannbo

"these are measures extraordinary that allow us to intervene to prevent individuals who are in the outbreak areas from leaving the Municipality ", as happened today when it was discovered that a man had escaped from Codogno's isolation to go to Montefusco, in the province of Avellino, where he was placed in quarantine with his family. The violation of the provision of entry and exit from the outbreak areas of the Coronavirus (whose radius has been widened) will be controlled "by the forces of the order and if necessary by the armed forces "and those who do not comply with the decree" will be subject to a penalty, according to article 650 of the Criminal Code.

梅干茶泡饭 发表于 2/22/2020 11:00:15 PM


请给出这段话是意大利首相说的新闻链接。
d
deadend

我特别痛恨第一条。 病毒又不是隐瞒就能消失的,典型的掩耳盗铃。以为自己不说,问题就会消失。这是怎样的智障做出来的决策。这种智障怎么能执政,这害了千千万万的人。 这种人就该判刑。

oceanmist 发表于 2/23/2020 12:14:13 AM

是啊 正是因为第一条,之后一个接一个的昏招,就一点都不稀奇了。
d
deadend

然而很多国家都在 repeat 第一条

MiuuiM 发表于 2/23/2020 12:23:19 AM

可是也没放任春运,组织万人宴,计划春节期间发放免费门票鼓励大家游园呀。
https://c.m.163.com/news/a/F3BMS7LL0525T6NL.html?spss=newsapp&spsw=1
R
Rio
话说要是23号停了全国春运,火车飞机轮船全都停了,大家都在原位家里待着,会不会好一些?这样全国范围停摆是不是不可能
f
feyncat99
谢谢科普
s
susus
威尼斯一年一度的嘉年华要凉了??
梅干茶泡饭


请给出这段话是意大利首相说的新闻链接。

mannbo 发表于 2/23/2020 12:23:32 AM


。。。你把我每层楼连起来看。。。第一楼第一部分第九条 我第二页18楼都贴了全篇了加链接。。。。还有BBC。。。不要做鸵鸟好么。。。或者你谷歌搜一下意大利首相现在全世界都报道了。。。。。。
做鸵鸟真的好么orz...
c
ca563

可是也没放任春运,组织万人宴,计划春节期间发放免费门票鼓励大家游园呀。
https://c.m.163.com/news/a/F3BMS7LL0525T6NL.html?spss=newsapp&spsw=1

deadend 发表于 2/23/2020 12:28:25 AM

早期对疫情总存在侥幸心理,所以版上才不断有人问定好的vacation还要不要去。日本也还在继续跑马,新加坡也还在各种庆祝活动。
o
okeanos
威尼斯一年一度的嘉年华要凉了??
susus 发表于 2/23/2020 2:24:51 AM

小地方的嘉年华已经取消了,威尼斯的估计也快了。
C
Cyabce
等到你那个城市的时候你就知道了,别嘴硬,哈哈😄
六七百年前医疗是什么条件?那时的人们有人权的概念不?nm把现在的中国跟六七百年前的国家比,也好意思!能举一个世界上50年内的用“封城”来解决瘟疫的例子不? mannbo 发表于 2/22/2020 9:24:00 PM
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showmm
Sad.....
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ljz1990
好帖 Mark之
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lemon3c
130多例😱
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Lightwinds
130多例😱
lemon3c 发表于 2/23/2020 9:28:25 AM

现在有更新么? 最新怎么样了。
M
MoreActive
赞 科普
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lingling7
意大利好像132确诊了
a
atuliuying
谢谢科普!永远抱着对未知事物的敬畏之心!
A
Acad
公主号,美国撤回400 人,看cdc 的作为,真怕在美国社区爆发
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lemon3c
回复 62楼Lightwinds的帖子 据媒体是有5个大区有问题,北部4个+中部1个。米兰的医生护士在罢工,当地有中国人戴口罩被鄙视,有低素质人攻击华人面孔(美国也有这样的无知极端人,神经病哪里都有)......反正情况不太乐观。
S
Summer_Breeze

早期对疫情总存在侥幸心理,所以版上才不断有人问定好的vacation还要不要去。日本也还在继续跑马,新加坡也还在各种庆祝活动。

ca563 发表于 2/23/2020 6:47:02 AM

还有人说最危险的地方就是最安全的地方。
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lemon3c
回复 62楼Lightwinds的帖子 38岁那名患者看活动轨迹是个很典型的外向型人:跑马拉松,参加足球比赛,红十字培训,去酒吧,和朋友吃饭。。。
梅干茶泡饭
回复 62楼Lightwinds的帖子[/url]

38岁那名患者看活动轨迹是个很典型的外向型人:跑马拉松,参加足球比赛,红十字培训,去酒吧,和朋友吃饭。。。
lemon3c 发表于 2/23/2020 11:04:08 AM

这里的第一个确诊病人是一名38岁男子。 这名男子在洛迪(Lodi)的联合利华公司上班,他曾因“流感”不适去看过急诊,但因为他从未去过中国,医生只做了抗生素治疗,并未对他进行深入检查。 随后,这名男子因为呼吸衰竭前往当地医院急诊,医生们这次才得知他之前曾跟一名中国回来的朋友一起吃饭,于是对他进行了核酸检测,最终发现他感染了新冠肺炎。 诡异的是,他的那名中国回来的朋友并没有任何症状,核酸检测也显示阴性!
这名38岁男子被感染后,又叫了家庭医生上门看病,又去了医院急诊,在病情加重之前,还曾去跑过两次步,踢过一次足球,去了至少3家餐厅吃饭,并且还参加了公司的会议。 现在,他怀孕8个月的妻子已经被确诊感染,接触过他的医护人员,同院的病人,他的亲戚朋友,以及经常出入同一家酒吧的顾客也有不少中招。 他的一名球友被他感染,这名球友又是一家酒吧老板的儿子,于是他又传染了这家酒吧的3个常客。 现在,去过他家的家庭医生,以及跟他在工作上有过接触的120人都还在等待检测结果。
T
Theash
赞楼主做的详实功课和总结能力。
梅干茶泡饭
现在一百多个了 这次中招的病毒似乎是比较强悍的那一款 事情很严重
南极科考队
有理有据的理性讨论,赞一个
i
ironpan
说得对。黑封城的居心不良。
f
ffare
谢谢楼主科普.
C
Caffeine
帖子不错。 mm的意思是说lombardy的是去米兰旅行的国人带过去的?或者出差的人? 我就不明白为什么意大利这样子了,法国没事。
s
sheorou
人间惨剧啊,越来越觉得不管你移民了还是入籍了,就能和自己的祖国分割了吗?谁也不能独善其身,这种极端情况出现的时候,还是看脸看肤色
o
okeanos
帖子不错。 mm的意思是说lombardy的是去米兰旅行的国人带过去的?或者出差的人? 我就不明白为什么意大利这样子了,法国没事。
Caffeine 发表于 2/23/2020 2:04:16 PM

法国也在等靴子掉下来啊,卫生部长自己说的,下一个超级感染者不知在哪。。。
C
Caffeine


法国也在等靴子掉下来啊,卫生部长自己说的,下一个超级感染者不知在哪。。。

okeanos 发表于 2/23/2020 2:15:36 PM


不知道是这个还是意大利查的全面。
另外很希望那个38岁的运动员康复。否则咱们普通人更焦虑了。
l
lavenderll
可是,这次的肺炎不是瘟疫,对它还有许多的未知。不能说,因为瘟疫时期需要封城,就可以justify现在封城的行为。

在信息不完全确定的时候封城,封城之后后勤跟不上,基层执行许多的非人性化。甚至说,以后人类是否需要和这个病长期共存都是未知。所以,恐怕没有人能说封城的决定是绝对正确的,尤其是在牺牲了城里许多无辜百姓的生活前提下。
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deja.vu
封城造成的人祸了?如果像武汉前期那样的封城处理,扪心自问你们愿意被困在家里轻症变成重症,家人全传染吗?
梅干茶泡饭
BBC今天新闻出现意大利人人民带着口罩在Aldi门口排队的照片了。。。
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okeanos
蹊跷的是一号病人现在都不知道怎么被传染上的。原先被认为的零号病人,一号从中国回来的好友测了好几次都是阴性。 而且第一个死者,老头,不是和一号一个地区的,没有去过中国,没有和中国来的接触过,也不知怎么被传染上。 要真是病毒多地起源,就糟了。
梅干茶泡饭

蹊跷的是一号病人现在都不知道怎么被传染上的。原先被认为的零号病人,一号从中国回来的好友测了好几次都是阴性。

而且第一个死者,老头,不是和一号一个地区的,没有去过中国,没有和中国来的接触过,也不知怎么被传染上。

要真是病毒多地起源,就糟了。

okeanos 发表于 2/23/2020 4:26:29 PM

对的 太蹊跷了 一号病人那个运动健将 还有第一个死者老头 无法找到传染源 也是意大利采取如此强硬手段的原因

真是奇怪
爱自己
黑封城的真应该好好读读这个帖子。对付烈性传染病,人类目前总结出的最直接有效的方法就是封城
l
l4528
赞科普。黑死病实际上应该还是腺鼠疫,非呼吸道传播,这次新肺从传播途径上应该快得多。
b
birdsofparadise
感谢lz靠谱,昨天也刚刚看了李永乐老师的视频
m
monkey1969
Rome suspends all national public competitions in the capital over #COVID19 fears, while the coronavirus outbreak in northern Italy worsens.
意甲也停了。
C
Caffeine
封城这种事情在现在的西方社会比较难进行,尤其是让城里的人等死的做法。 其实这次武汉除了封晚了,另一个就是没资源(咱们可以另争论为什么没资源),让里面的人等死。 意大利的“封城”,如果供给足够是很可以让人理解的。 封城,用一小部分牺牲多数人,是西方民主社会缺省不认可的做法,参见隔壁加州告联邦政府的帖子。
梅干茶泡饭
封城这种事情在现在的西方社会比较难进行,尤其是让城里的人等死的做法。
其实这次武汉除了封晚了,另一个就是没资源(咱们可以另争论为什么没资源),让里面的人等死。
意大利的“封城”,如果供给足够是很可以让人理解的。
封城,用一小部分牺牲多数人,是西方民主社会缺省不认可的做法,参见隔壁加州告联邦政府的帖子。
Caffeine 发表于 2/23/2020 5:03:08 PM

意大利人现在的心态是求封城 而不是反对封城。。。历史教训太惨烈了

不过意大利每个小村子人口少 我看媒体的意思是全部run一遍如果能找到未知的传染源 应该可以很快解封
梅干茶泡饭
https://tg24.sky.it/cronaca/2020/02/23/coronavirus-italia-austria-treni.html Trains affected by the stop The Austrian railways had announced that travel between Innsbruck and the Brenner (and vice versa) would be interrupted, with the trains stopped at Steinach am Brenner station. The blockade was also to concern the Austrian regional Rex1828 and the Espresso D408 Nice-Moscow. Austrian Interior Minister Karl Nehammer said he was "in close contact with the governor of Tyrol, Guenther Platter on how to proceed". 本来以为意呆够胆小了,没想到奥地利人更是吓得不轻= = 动不动就封关口。。。 据说现在火车恢复通行了。
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lingling7
A seventh person has died in the coronavirus outbreak in northern Italy, news agency ANSA said, while the number of confirmed cases rose to more than 220. ANSA said the latest person to die was an 80-year-old man who had been taken to hospital last week in Lodi after suffering a heart attack. Doctors believe he caught the virus there from another patient. —Reuters
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Chibi_Maruko
米兰封城了吗?
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lingling7
Milan is not under quarantine.
l
lingling7
Universities in Milan have been closed and the city's mayor, Giuseppe Sala, said schools would also close their doors while the outbreak continued.

"As a precaution I think that the schools have to be closed in Milan. I will propose to the president of the region to enlarge the precaution to the entire metropolitan city area. It is just a precaution, we don't want to create panic," he said.

Colette Walsh, an English teacher living in the town of Lissone, told the BBC that supermarket shelves were empty as people were panic-buying.
l
lindawan

这里的第一个确诊病人是一名38岁男子。 这名男子在洛迪(Lodi)的联合利华公司上班,他曾因“流感”不适去看过急诊,但因为他从未去过中国,医生只做了抗生素治疗,并未对他进行深入检查。 随后,这名男子因为呼吸衰竭前往当地医院急诊,医生们这次才得知他之前曾跟一名中国回来的朋友一起吃饭,于是对他进行了核酸检测,最终发现他感染了新冠肺炎。 诡异的是,他的那名中国回来的朋友并没有任何症状,核酸检测也显示阴性!
这名38岁男子被感染后,又叫了家庭医生上门看病,又去了医院急诊,在病情加重之前,还曾去跑过两次步,踢过一次足球,去了至少3家餐厅吃饭,并且还参加了公司的会议。 现在,他怀孕8个月的妻子已经被确诊感染,接触过他的医护人员,同院的病人,他的亲戚朋友,以及经常出入同一家酒吧的顾客也有不少中招。 他的一名球友被他感染,这名球友又是一家酒吧老板的儿子,于是他又传染了这家酒吧的3个常客。 现在,去过他家的家庭医生,以及跟他在工作上有过接触的120人都还在等待检测结果。
梅干茶泡饭 发表于 2/23/2020 11:11:31 AM

那医学人员是不是应该好好研究一下跟他一起去吃饭的从中国回来的朋友为什么显示阴性呢
咖啡和茶
不要看那些历史,看看你家自己的屎,都沾到隔壁门上去了
咖啡和茶
过去没有生化武器真好啊 传播哪里这么广 死亡哪里这么高