分析mRNA疫苗和灭活疫苗作用机理的不同。“宏观”地看。不是专家哈

h
huntridge
楼主 (文学城)

mRNA疫苗进入人体后随着体液/血液流动和扩散进入身体各个层次。在这过程中在适合条件下会不断地in-situ产生抗原。这样产生的抗原是可能会分布广总数量也多。这和报告的强预防作用对应。

灭活疫苗则不同。一开始就是以抗原形式出现因为它就是抗原(没错吧?)而且体积也大。这对灭活疫苗进入人体其他部分产生一定的障碍,虽然抗原也会随着流动和扩散进入身体各个层次。但是其浓度随进入深度可能会很快衰减。其在人体的分布不如mRNA疫苗产生的抗原那么广泛。这和报告的较弱预防作用对应。

但是mRNA疫苗的分布广可能是担心的一部分。怕它进入不该去的地方产生不该产生的东西。

上面的分析没有考虑mRNA疫苗分解速度(假设传输速度保证enough的作用时间。这肯定测试过了)。下面是一些稳定性数据:

M- Once the vaccine is removed from the refrigerator for administration, it can be kept at room temperature conditions for up to 12 hours.

P - Once the vaccine has been opened and diluted with saline, either vials or syringes can be stored or transported at room temperatures of up to 30°C for up to six hours.

 

f
fuz
“ mRNA疫苗进入人体后随着体液/血液流动和扩散进入身体各个层次”,不对。应该留在局部肌肉里,不进入血行
f
fuz
灭活疫苗中加了铝盐,半固化抗原蛋白,只停留在注射部位。
h
huntridge
那应该可以进入体液吧
f
fuz
可渗入淋巴管,被淋巴结截住,不会乱走一气。这就为啥有人打了mRNA疫苗后,腋下淋巴结肿大
h
huntridge
没问题。这证明mRNA产生的抗原分布是比灭活疫苗要广。另外有没有可能发生非理想的情况?
h
huntridge
那疫苗进入人体后分布会极其局限。楼下关于打完疫苗之后第二天不要做核酸检测的说法值得商榷,
B
BiologistMom
Circulating SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine Antigen Detected in the Plasma of

Abstract

SARS-CoV-2 proteins were measured in longitudinal plasma samples collected from 13 participants who received two doses of mRNA-1273 vaccine. 11 of 13 participants showed detectable levels of SARS-CoV-2 protein as early as day one after first vaccine injection. Clearance of detectable SARS-CoV-2 protein correlated with production of IgG and IgA.

 

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab465/6279075 

 

f
fuz
灭活疫苗,是混合体,只经过粗提,会有核酸残留。铝盐凝胶只固化蛋白,核酸还是自由自在的乱窜
f
fuz
肌肉注射进针后,应抽一下,确认没有回血,再注入疫苗。实际操作中,很少有人抽回血,也许会打入小血管。

只要注射人员按规定做,抽一下回血,可以避免许多副作用(包括心肌炎)

M
Michelangelo
B
BiologistMom
can mRNA vaccine cross the BBB (blood rain barrier)?

It seems that the LNPs (lipid nanoparticles) that contain the mRNA of Covid-19 vaccines from BioNTech and Moderna do - at low doses - pass the BBB. This is mentioned by the EMA several times in their report, for example p. 54 and discussed in the comments of an article on Derek Lowe's blog.

If that's indeed the case, what would happen once the mRNA + nanolipid reach the brain? Which cells would pick up the LNPs and for how long would they stay in the brain? If there is cells that can transform this mRNA in proteins, where will these proteins then go, and for how long will they stay in the brain? What about the LNPs: what can/will the brain do with the remaining lipids?

More readings:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/nhcl0o/mrna_vaccines_what_become_the_lnps_that_cross_the/

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/11/rna-vaccines-and-their-lipids#comment-336216 

 

欲千北
疫苗携带的 mRNA,在细胞内产生S蛋白后,S 蛋白会进入血液流动。
欲千北
由于纳米质粒带正电,如果质粒进入血液,穿越脑血屏障是可能的。
h
huntridge
谢谢。又学习了。
f
fuz
这篇文章可信度有问题,比如:“ 康涅狄格州就有18名青少年因服用COVID-19疫苗后”。疫苗是“服用”的么?
B
BiologistMom
This is the English version "Vaccine researcher admits ‘big mist

‘Terrifying’ new research finds vaccine spike protein unexpectedly in bloodstream. The protein is linked to blood clots, heart and brain damage, and potential risks to nursing babies and fertility.

https://archive.is/dV4T4 

And of cause, this is the counter-argument. The truth resides in real data - which takes time.

Byram Bridle's claim that COVID-19 vaccines are toxic fails to account for key differences between the spike protein produced during infection and vaccination, misrepresents studies

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/byram-bridles-claim-that-covid-19-vaccines-are-toxic-fails-to-account-for-key-differences-between-the-spike-protein-produced-during-infection-and-vaccination-misrepresents-studies/ 

f
fuz
是的,mRNA疫苗使用的是改造过的核酸片段,所产生的S蛋白与天然病毒的不一样。
法眼
这篇文章的英文原文发在一个名声很臭的网站上,早就被批驳了。
f
fuz
可有些二百五仍捧为至宝,跟着起哄
B
BiologistMom
That's the design. However, the small size study indicates the d
M
Michelangelo
不懂生物来看你们讨论的。看完还是没结论:(还是让时间说话吧
青山白水
是生物疫苗科普吗
f
fuz
猜想
令狐冲.
贴子第一句就说错了,说明毫无生物知识,切勿兴口开合的瞎说,是谣言还不够多吗
h
huntridge
哪个错了?可以说俺的结论基本没错。同时你应该考虑理想和非理想情况。
h
huntridge
这可以说是secondary effect。问题是会不会引起去了不该去的地方的副作用
f
fuz
“ 理想和非理想情况”,不是生物,是生活
h
huntridge
没问题但是在效果来看是一样必须考虑的。另外上面有人给出了secondary effects.借此再多问一句-完美的肌肉注射在任何

条件下不管身体有什么特殊情况都不会进入血液吗?

f
fuz
这要看打什么。一般而言,水溶性药物最终要分布全身;灭活疫苗微溶,基本上待在原位;mRNA为悬浮微粒,以原位为主,淋巴系统为辅。
严惠姗
请问Fuz:血行是血液循环的意思吗?