失败的QQQ/TQQQ 投资者

猛牛
楼主 (文学城)

投坛上看似投资成功的不少,但其实是幸存者偏差所致

你看到的都是成功的,很多失败的你没看到!

但不等于不存在失败的。

大家对TQQQ和QQQ现在很着迷,好像你可以复制别人的成功!

还可以认为能因此搞个几亿或几十亿。

其实完全看运气。谁知道几十年后的事呢?

运气好肯定行,运气不好就不行!自己的运气和国运!

其实我就是失败的QQQ/TQQQ 投资者。

在TQQQ还没诞生之前,我就注意到这个加杆杠的东西。那时没有ETF, 只有mutual fund

现在还在,代号是 UOPIX,是2x  Nasdaq 100 index, 相当于现在的QLD。 我投进去的钱,基本上打水漂了。

即使一直持有,那24年了,还在水下,当时想,Nasdaq 100 每年涨15% 不是问题,两倍应该在30%左右。

27年就有1000倍了, 很可惜 24年了,还在水下!

 

我只是有感而发,不代表我不看好科技股,只是想说明成功不易,复制很难,失败者不计其数,别被投坛众多成功故事所误导!
 

啊哈哈哈。。。。。。。。。。。

 

 

 

高山峻岭流水人家
定投肯定赚钱,赚多赚少而已。当然有扛杆会把自己搞完蛋。

只要不卖。

C
CatcherInTheRye
2000年最高点进去的?

不过没关系,那时你又没多少钱,虽然没发财但对你现在的生活水平毫无负面影响。我2000年2.5倍杠杆,结果可想而知。就当交学费了。反正青春就是拿来浪费的。

 

 

B
BeLe
有意思,QQQ(NDX) 涨了几倍,2 x QQQ 还在水下。
n
njrookie
time decay is a function of leverage ratio

It can easily be quantified 

O
OrangeBread
那啥,3X的我2012年就玩过,有帖为证:)

https://bbs.wenxuecity.com/tzlc/450126.html

 

都是一年里的买卖,赚点小钱,杠杆大的都用在房子里,抵税呀。

H
Hightides
TQQQ,在QQQ平盘震动或下降的时候,是不好的
猛牛
你说的对,要是在底部勇敢的买入几十万,现在就有几千万了!
猛牛
是的,虎兄说的对!

啊哈哈哈。。。。。。。。。。。。

猛牛
牛!

啊哈哈哈。。。。。。。。。。。

猛牛
以前不知道吧?

啊哈哈哈。。。。。。。。。。。

H
Hightides
其实投啥,都有优缺点,关键是你自己要知道风险和回报,富贵险中求。
s
spookyoldtree
TQQQ decay跟leverage没关系吧。本质上是volatility decay。

$100开始

QQQ 先降10%($90) , 再升 11.11%可以回到$100.

TQQQ同时期降30%(到$70), 回升33.33%只能到$93.3

H
Hightides
你说的对,简单粗暴,呵呵,TQQQ还有一个问题,管理费巨高
越王剑
这次如果不是因为AI,三球也不会回来那么快

比较这个利率水平对科技公司不利。AI的兴起改变了everything!

s
spookyoldtree
是的。吃准了玩这个的人都想赌大的:)
d
drgas
这个啊哈哈哈贴不错,值得大家借鉴,失败是成功之母
H
Hightides
不完全是这个原因我觉的,因为降利率也是个利好,尽管还没降,花街总是先动的
天下无熊无牛仅涨跌
关键是TQQQ的运作方式,如果TQQQ就是简单的用三倍MARGIN买QQQ结果就大不一样了

     

H
Hightides
没错,我基本生活靠房子就ok了,股市整个大的,游船美女的不是梦,哈哈哈
仁雅居
我一直以为Tqqq的损耗是数学原罪加交易情绪的结果,没想到还要加管理费
仁雅居
感觉今年TQQQ依旧有机会,但是未来要设止损位
H
Hightides
以前1%,刚刚看了一下0.88%,这和VOO的0.03%不是一个class 的,哈哈哈哈
非同凡响001
我现在还有,不过是赚钱的,周一赶紧卖了吧,猛牛都不赚钱,我就更不要想了
H
Hightides
我有个model 叫滚球动态平衡,TQQQ和VOO,动态调整,这次到顶以后,一定要把理论结合实际起来,呵呵
仁雅居
我打算再拿一阵,不过今年肯定得清仓
T
Tomasli
QQQ 也有0.2%
仁雅居
我平时根本不盯TQQQ,只关心大盘和QQQ, 只要美股大盘不倒,估计三球出不了大问题
m
mobius
有个哥大教授发了篇文章讲了个和你类似的model

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Papers.cfm?abstract_id=3549581 TQQQ+TMF 不过这模型2022年好像会大亏。

T
Tomasli
赚钱和管理费成正比 ? QQQ> VGT > VOO
h
hz82000
玩三球就算了吧,这里老虎还有阳阳都有深刻教训
H
Hightides
差不多的意思,但是2023年30$进,现在也快一倍了,怎么能亏呢?
H
Hightides
太正常,多挣多分,win win 哈哈
H
Hightides
我的教训是挣的太少,下次搞个大的,哈哈哈
仁雅居
踢三球我也拿了一年了,如果接下来大盘晃动,设个止损
H
Hightides
行势变了,一定要逃,但是不能被MM给假动作骗了,下车早了,他远离你而去,就是更多的痛苦,呵呵
s
start2020
我过去两年一直买tqqq和fngu, 本金不超过1%,同时一直有买put,以防大跌见外婆
仁雅居
我也是,有点后悔当初下手不够狠
仁雅居
我目前的踢三球处于裸奔状态,未来计划设止损位-10%,爱咋咋滴
数学博士
光买QQQ应该不会这样吧?
m
mobius
2022年,股债双杀。当然,挺过去就好了。
喜欢简单2023
TQQQ+TMF 组合在其他论坛都有讨论和回测,回测结果都很好,这两年就亏惨了,问题出在 TMF 而不是 TQQQ
s
study169
这个fund在我们公司退休金账户里面可以买,定投的话是不是比较安全?

m
mobius
说明这个模型的罩门被破了。
H
Hightides
我有个base model 是调整到现金,但是我有钱就要买,所以要投的啥
b
bobpainting
谢司令的经验分享。我要查查你说的2倍24年怎么还在水下。那指很高,什么原理?
n
njrookie
你举这个例子就是三倍杠杆。你用两倍杠杆试试就没那么多decay
s
spookyoldtree
对。之前错误的理解了你的意思。
s
slow_quick
跟 leverage, volatility and time 都有关。。。

Minder Cheng and Ananth Madhavan, THE DYNAMICS OF LEVERAGED AND INVERSE EXCHANGE-TRADED FUNDS

Formula(27)has leverage \(x\) (could be negative for inverse), volatility \(\sigma\) and time \(t_N\) 。坛子里有金融教授出来解释一下吧。

新年好运来
bogleheads的UPRO + TMF 在2022年亏惨了
n
njrookie
十年前写的帖子,再发一遍

Pros and Cons of Leveraged and Inverse ETFs  (2014-10-30 06:45:49)下一个 1 The rebalancing rules of leveraged and inverse etfs are in the same direction as the immediate past movement of the underlying. If underlying moved up, they buy more; if underlying moved down, they all sell more. 

2 They do a decent job in replicating X times the DAILY returns of the underlying, X being the leverage factor (ie X=2, 3, -1, -2, -3);

3 Due to the rebalancing rule, leveraged etf will OUTPERFORM, ie return you more than X times the underlying returns over multiple days, if the underlying is trending, which is similar to compounding effects;

4 However if the underlying  is consolidating, then leveraged etf will buy high and sell low, which leads to time decay. The faster the underlying moves (volatility), and the more directionless the underlying moves (negative correlation over time), the faster the time decay. The effect is similar to theta of option, and the term "time decay" comes from that literature. 

5 The behavior of leveraged ETFs are also like that of option. As an option moves further and further into the money, the long position gains at an increasing speed due to positive gamma.

6 Time decay of leveraged per se is not a problem. Time decay is a cost you pay to gain convexity, ie compounding effect. The problem here is that market on average is more likely to be trading in range/directionless/mean reversting (80% of time) than trading in momentum/trending (20% of time). So if you plan to hold for multiple days, then leveraged ETF is not a good instrument.

7 If you do want a long-term position, but still need leverage what do you do? You can use futures to gain leveraged without suffering time decay. You can also use the underlying (ie X=1) with margin money. With a portfolio margin account, you can go up to 6-7X leverage with minimal margin interest payment at today's low FF rates. The key here is to keep notional exposure in check. On a return on capital basis, you will gain 5X, 10X, 20X leverage. However the multiplier will be a linear multiplier, ie you will not gain compounding. Do not use options, as options are non-linear contracts that are best reserved to trade the direction of volatility, not the direction of the underlying.

8 If you do not understand the points above, do not touch either leveraged etf or futures. Options certainly should also be out of your consideration.

Just my 2c.   
n
njrookie
十年前写的帖子,再发一遍

Pros and Cons of Leveraged and Inverse ETFs  (2014-10-30 06:45:49)下一个 1 The rebalancing rules of leveraged and inverse etfs are in the same direction as the immediate past movement of the underlying. If underlying moved up, they buy more; if underlying moved down, they all sell more. 

2 They do a decent job in replicating X times the DAILY returns of the underlying, X being the leverage factor (ie X=2, 3, -1, -2, -3);

3 Due to the rebalancing rule, leveraged etf will OUTPERFORM, ie return you more than X times the underlying returns over multiple days, if the underlying is trending, which is similar to compounding effects;

4 However if the underlying  is consolidating, then leveraged etf will buy high and sell low, which leads to time decay. The faster the underlying moves (volatility), and the more directionless the underlying moves (negative correlation over time), the faster the time decay. The effect is similar to theta of option, and the term "time decay" comes from that literature. 

5 The behavior of leveraged ETFs are also like that of option. As an option moves further and further into the money, the long position gains at an increasing speed due to positive gamma.

6 Time decay of leveraged per se is not a problem. Time decay is a cost you pay to gain convexity, ie compounding effect. The problem here is that market on average is more likely to be trading in range/directionless/mean reversting (80% of time) than trading in momentum/trending (20% of time). So if you plan to hold for multiple days, then leveraged ETF is not a good instrument.

7 If you do want a long-term position, but still need leverage what do you do? You can use futures to gain leveraged without suffering time decay. You can also use the underlying (ie X=1) with margin money. With a portfolio margin account, you can go up to 6-7X leverage with minimal margin interest payment at today's low FF rates. The key here is to keep notional exposure in check. On a return on capital basis, you will gain 5X, 10X, 20X leverage. However the multiplier will be a linear multiplier, ie you will not gain compounding. Do not use options, as options are non-linear contracts that are best reserved to trade the direction of volatility, not the direction of the underlying.

8 If you do not understand the points above, do not touch either leveraged etf or futures. Options certainly should also be out of your consideration.

Just my 2c.   
n
njrookie
要是(-3x)的杠杠,decay更快。formula在下面帖子
j
justbuy168
你可以怀疑萌萌以前说的所有话,但这次真的是千真万确!T3Q不是人玩的。玩QQQ就够了。
m
mobius
要是口袋深,同时空两边三倍。
H
Hightides
我试过,反向没有护城河因为美股大体向上,不好做
m
mobius
这个式子好像说,牛市,σ~0,回报是指数,TQQQ=QQQ^3
m
mobius
是的。这个只能震荡市赚钱。牛市风险大

见这篇文章: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2172096

s
slow_quick
据我观察 njrookie 是大教授,听听他怎么说
s
stockganster
稍微有点头脑清醒的都不应该把2x或3x当投资

理论上2x在指数连跌50%时就归零了,那样以后指数再怎么涨,2x它还是零

p
poconodog
查了一下,2000年买的UOPIX的确还在水下。但是TQQQ 这10+年涨了100倍
I
Iknowno
3x杠杆,原理上就是原指数涨跌同样的幅度,一个来回后本金成为原来的91%。