朝鲜战争中所谓联合国军放弃海空补偿是共产党对联军屈服,因为谈判开始时实控线主要在38线以北30公里外。

h
hkzs
楼主 (文学峸)

所谓海空补偿是应对共产党方面提出的以38线为界的反建议。联合国军一向主张就地停火,以实控线为分界线。而朝中方面一直反对以实际控制线为停火线,要求以38线为分界线来恢复战前国界(具体操作估计就是要联合国军在中段东段撤回38线,自己从西端北撤到38线,中共很喜欢提这种互相交换的建议,就像中印边界谈判一样)。联合国军所谓30公里海空补偿就是指现在的位于38线以北30公里处的停火线。朝中方面不接受,于是双方又打了四个月,联合国军打得朝中部队节节后退,朝中方面见势不妙,只好放弃自己的要求,向联合国军妥协,接受联合国军的以实控线为停火线的主张。当然,正如日本人可以把投降说成终战,中国宣传员也能把自己的让步说成对方的让步。

任何人只要去现在地图上查查停火线的位置就能找到什么才是事实真相。

聂耳
这样战后朝鲜的实际面积还小于战前。所以后来金日成一直对中国不满,毛周又不得不把长白山的一半给朝鲜给予面积补偿

这也是为什么后来中国老是让朝鲜三分

h
hkzs
没有内战中金日成对中共的支持,中共南满根据地无法坚持下来,林彪能不能拿下东北就不好说了。
有言
“联合国军打得朝中部队节节后退”?具体说说看。不然就是主观想象。哈哈。-:)
h
hkzs
参见随附朝鲜战争大事记。涉及地名可以查地图。看看志愿军是不是被美军打得节节后退。

[[一九五一年]]

    一月三日至四日联合国军撤出汉城,撤至平泽、原州、三陟一线并进行整编。

    一月七日为重新与中共军队建立接触,第8集团军向北部发起强大的试探性进攻。

    一月十五日一支加强的团战斗队实施侦察行动即“狼狗行动”,在乌山附近与敌重新建立接触。

    一月二十五日第8集团军和南朝鲜军采取攻势行动。第1和第9军向汉江北进,“霹雷行动”开始。

    一月三十一日至二月十七日美第2师投入激战。其第23团战斗队及其加强的蒙克拉尔法国营在磔平里粉碎中共军队五个师的进攻,中共军队攻势突然终止。

    二月五日美第10军之进攻,即“围捕行动”于东线开始。

    二月十一日至十七日中国发动第四阶段攻势,主攻方向为美第2师防御地段。

    二月二十日“屠夫行动”,即美第9军和第10军发动的一次总攻开始。

    二月二十八日敌军在汉江以南最后之抵抗行动陷于瓦解。

    三月七日在中部和东部地带,“撕裂者行动”开始,第9和第10军越过汉江。

    三月十四日至十五日第8集团军重新夺占汉城。

    三月三十一日联合国军进抵“爱达荷线”,夺取全部地理目标。

    四月五日向“堪萨斯线”全面出击的“狂暴行动”开始。

    四月十一日麦克阿瑟将军被免除最高司令官职务,李奇微将军被指定接替其职务。

    四月十四日范弗里特将军就任第8集团军司令。联合国军所有部队进抵“堪萨斯线”。

    四月十九日美第1军和第9军进抵“犹他线”。

    四月二十二日至二十八日中国发动第五阶段攻势的第一次进攻。

    四月三十日在撤至新防线后,联合国军将中国之攻势阻于汉城和汉江以北地区。

    五月十六日至二十三日中国发动第五阶段攻势的第二次亦即最后一次进攻。

    五月二十日中国的攻势遭到阻止。联合国军恢复攻势。

    五月三十日第8集团军再次进抵“堪萨斯线”。

    六月一日第1和第9军所属部队向“怀俄明线”挺进,“打桩机行动”开始。

    六月十五日夺取了“打桩机行动”所规定之地形目标。

    六月二十三日苏联副外长马立克建议停火。

    六月三十日奉华盛顿之命令,李奇微将军向中国人广播说联合国军准备讨论停战问题。

    七月十日联合国军和共产党之间的谈判在开城开始。

L
LengXiao
对中共来说这线划北点划南一点都无所谓。中共抗美援朝的战略目标就是保家卫国,即不允许朝鲜有一个亲西方的政权,成为一个虎视眈眈的邻居
L
LengXiao
金家也不傻,也知道中国的私心,所以用血凝成的友谊只是表面的宣传而已,大家都知道是互相利用。
b
borisg
你每天在这里争这个,谁也说服不了谁,说了多少遍了,有什么意义。走吧。
h
hkzs
不,实控线是联合国军打出来的,本身就是联合国军军事胜利的标志和共产党失败的结果。

三八线是战前国界,可以说是中立的。共产党方面在宣传上始终企图混淆实控线和三八线的区别就是这个原因。

方家胡同
哈哈哈哈!
L
LengXiao
你这种想法很局限。一场战争的胜负不仅仅体现在军事上。中共已达到了其战略目标,没有人可以在此边境威胁中国的安全。
L
LengXiao
确实是。甚至说服不了当时美国的当事人。
L
LengXiao
还有不要将中共和金家的战略目标混为一谈,好吗?
h
hkzs
军事问题很重要。抗美援朝时,正因为联军主动撤回38线,让共方低估了联军的战斗力,才在1951年底错误地拒绝了联合国停火。

导致了联合国之后对中国的20年制裁而并没有获得比50年底更好的战果。

h
hkzs
朝鲜战争是共产党阵营和自由世界两个阵营之间的战争。不是中美单挑。
英二
这么好的胜利题材,好莱坞怎么说也应该有个电影欢庆一下,
h
hkzs
美国总统认为美国在朝鲜是无可争议的胜利者。

奥巴马总统在纪念朝鲜战争60周年时发表的演说说过:

When our soldiers stand firm along the DMZ; when our South Korean friends can go about their lives, knowing that the commitment of the United States to the security of the Republic of Korea will never waver -- that is a victory,and that is your legacy.

桃花源主
扯皮旦。少了些地但得到的是更重要的。因为靠近汉城。是征得金的同意的。而舍后来也希望早了结。
老柏树
停火最关键的一是如何画停火线,二是如何处理战俘问题。其他都是枝枝叶叶的。

从51年1月底4次战役开始,总体是联军稍占优势。志愿军付出重大代价,基本维持住了38线,至少没被打回鸭绿江,达到老毛出兵的底线。

志愿军牺牲的4个军级干部,19个师级干部中的17人,都是牺牲在51年1月后。代价可见一斑。这是和谈拖了2年,最后停火线+战俘都服从了美国最初的立场的基础。

p
pangpangxiongxiong
人家美国人还是要脸的
p
pangpangxiongxiong
真会阿Q,奥巴马的话也能用来断章取义地验证胜利
p
pangpangxiongxiong
中美军队首战在长津湖,说说共军从长津湖败退到哪儿去了?
p
pangpangxiongxiong
得了,中方觉得不值得为小片土地牺牲战士的生命。美军到鸭绿江西岸占一片土地试试?
h
hkzs
在长津湖,志愿军部署了3个军试图围歼美陆战一师的两个团,结果自己失去了战斗力,而对方却能全身而退,并且还带走了10万平民。

在长津湖畔,志愿军部署了3个军共12个师试图围歼美陆战一师的两个团,结果自己失去了战斗力,而对方却能全身而退,并且还带走了10万平民。长津湖之战毫无疑问是美军的伟大胜利,这也是为啥此战在美国经常被提到的原因。毛泽东接见过的特级战斗英雄杨根思在下碣隅里外的小高岭阵地战至最后一兵一卒,自己抱着炸药包自爆,结果也没能阻止陆战一师顺利撤回兴南港。

不仅如此,撤回兴南港后的陆战一师建制完整,士气高昂(参见李奇微的《朝鲜战争》,第十军其他部队基本没有和志愿军交过手,而整个9兵团在美军打击,和寒冷天气的双重打击下,整个兵团已经失去了战斗力,能打的部队已经只有几个连(参见军事科学院官方的《中国人民志愿军战史简编》),如果联合国军不是主动撤回38线而是发起反击,第十军完全有能力轻松将已经冻僵了的第9兵团全歼于盖马高原。

 

h
hkzs
真要占了,你也会说,不值得为这一小片土地影响大局。
h
hkzs
全文在此。

THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you so much.  (Applause.)  Thank you.  Please be seated.  Good morning.  Annyong haseyo. 

Secretaries Hagel, Jewell and Shinseki; Admiral Winnefeld; General Jung; all our friends from the Republic of Korea, including the legendary General Paik Sun Yup; distinguished guests; and most of all, veterans of the Korean War and your families.  (Applause.)  To our veterans -- many in your 80s, a few in your old uniforms -- which still fit -- (laughter) -- let me just say you look outstanding.  And I would ask that all United States, Republic of Korea, and other veterans who fought  -- I would ask those who can stand to please stand so that we can properly honor you here today.  (Applause.)    

July 27th, 1953 -- 60 years ago today.  In the village of Panmunjom, in a barren room, the generals picked up their pens and signed their names to the agreement spread before them.  That night, as the armistice took hold, the guns of war thundered no more.  Along the jagged front, men emerged from their muddy trenches.  A Marine raised his bugle and played taps.  And a soldier spoke for millions when he said, “Thank God it is over.”

In the days that followed, both sides pulled back, leaving a demilitarized zone between them.  Soldiers emptied their sandbags and tore down their bunkers.  Our POWs emerged from the camps.  Our troops boarded ships and steamed back across the ocean.  And describing the moment he passed under the Golden Gate Bridge, one of those soldiers wrote, “We suddenly knew we had survived the war, and we were home.”

Yet ask these veterans here today and many will tell you, compared to other wars, theirs was a different kind of homecoming.  Unlike the Second World War, Korea did not galvanize our country.  These veterans did not return to parades.  Unlike Vietnam, Korea did not tear at our country.  These veterans did not return to protests.  Among many Americans, tired of war, there was, it seemed, a desire to forget, to move on.  As one of these veterans recalls, “We just came home and took off our uniforms and went to work.  That was about it.”  

You, our veterans of Korea, deserved better.  And down the decades, our nation has worked to right that wrong, including here, with this eternal memorial, where the measure of your sacrifice is enshrined for all time.  Because here in America, no war should ever be forgotten, and no veteran should ever be overlooked.  And after the armistice, a reporter wrote, “When men talk in some distant time with faint remembrance of the Korean War, the shining deeds will live.”  The shining deeds will live. 

On this 60th anniversary, perhaps the highest tribute we can offer our veterans of Korea is to do what should have been done the day you come home.  In our hurried lives, let us pause.  Let us listen.  Let these veterans carry us back to the days of their youth, and let us be awed by their shining deeds.

Listen closely and hear the story of a generation -- veterans of World War II recalled to duty.  Husbands kissing their wives goodbye yet again.  Young men -- some just boys, 18, 19, 20 years old -- leaving behind everyone they loved “to defend a country they never knew and a people they never met.”  Let’s never forget all the daughters who left home, especially our heroic nurses who saved so many.  Our women in Korea also served with honor.  They also gave their lives.  (Applause.)

Listen, and hear how these Americans faced down their fears and did their duty.  Clutching their rifles; hearing the bugles in the distance; knowing that waves of enemy fighters would soon be upon them.  In ships offshore, climbing down the ropes into the landing craft, knowing some of them would not leave that beach.  On the tarmacs and flight decks, taking off in their Corsairs and Sabres, knowing that they might not return to this earth.

Listen, and hear of their gallantry -- often outnumbered and outgunned -- in some of the most brutal combat in modern history. How they held the line at the Pusan Perimeter.  How they landed at Inchon and turned the tide of the war.  How, surrounded and freezing, they battled their way out of Chosin Reservoir.  And how they fought -- foxhole by foxhole, mountain after mountain, day and night -- at the Punchbowl and Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and Pork Chop Hill.

Listen, and hear how perhaps the only thing worse than the enemy was the weather.  The searing heat, the choking dust of summer.  The deep snow and bitter cold of winter -- so cold their weapons could jam; so cold their food would turn to ice.  And surely no one endured more than our POWs in those hellish camps, where the torment was unimaginable.  Our POWs from Korea are some of the strongest men our nation has ever produced, and today we honor them all -- those who never came home and those who are here today.  (Applause.)

Listen to these veterans and you’ll also hear of the resilience of the human spirit.  There was compassion -- starving prisoners who shared their food.  There was love -- men who charged machine guns, and reached for grenades, so their brothers might live.  There was the dark humor of war -- as when someone misunderstood the code name for mortar rounds -- “Tootsie Rolls” -- and then shipped our troops thousands of Tootsie Rolls --  candies.

And there was hope -- as told in a letter home written by a soldier in the 7th Cavalry.  Marching through the snow and ice, something caught his eye -- a young lieutenant up ahead, and from the muzzle of his rifle hung a pair of tiny baby booties, “swinging silently in the wind…like tiny bells.”  They were sent by the lieutenant’s wife, pregnant with their first child, and she promised to send ribbons -- blue if a boy, pink if a girl.  But as the war ground on, those soldiers were scattered.  Until one day, on a Korean road, he spotted the lieutenant again.  “Swinging gaily in the first rays of the morning sun,” the soldier wrote, were those booties, “and fluttering below them was the brightest, bluest piece of ribbon I have ever seen.”

Six decades on, these moments may seem like faint remembrances of a distant time.  But for you -- our Korea veterans and your families -- I know it must feel sometimes just like just yesterday.  And on days such as this, you’re back there once more.  For Korea was the fire that helped to forge you. 

As we listen to the story of your service, I say let us also learn, because your lives hold lessons for us today.  Korea taught us the perils when we fail to prepare.  After the Second World War, a rapid drawdown left our troops underequipped, so that in the early days of Korea, their rockets literally bounced off enemy tanks.  Today, as we end a decade of war and reorient our forces for the future, as we make hard choices at home, our allies and adversaries must know the United States of America will maintain the strongest military the world has ever known, bar none, always.  That is what we do.  (Applause.)

Korea taught us that, as a people, we are stronger when we stand as one.  On President Truman’s orders, our troops served together in integrated units.  And the heroism of African Americans in Korea -- and Latinos and Asian Americans and Native Americans -- advanced the idea:  If these Americans could live and work together over there, surely we could do the same thing here at home.  (Applause.) 

Change came slowly.  And we continue our long journey toward a more perfect union.  But for the great strides we have made toward the ideals of equality and opportunity, we must give thanks to our Korean War veterans who helped point the way.

Korea reminds us that when we send our troops into battle, they deserve the support and gratitude of the American people -- especially when they come home.  Today, let us remember that -- right now -- our sons and daughters continue to risk their lives, give their lives, in Afghanistan.  And as this war ends and we welcome them home, we will make it our mission to give them the respect and the care and the opportunities that they have earned. (Applause.) 

And Korea reminds us that our obligations to our fallen and their families endure long after the battle ends.  To this day, 7,910 Americans are still missing from the Korean War.  And we will not stop working until we give these families a full accounting of their loved ones.  (Applause.)  Like Sergeant First Class William Robinson -- 26 years old -- missing for 63 years.  This week, in Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, the Robinsons will welcome their uncle home and finally lay him to rest -- with full military honors.  (Applause.)     

Freedom is not free.  And in Korea, no one paid a heavier price than those who gave all -- 36,574 American patriots, and, among our allies, more than one million of our South Korean friends -- soldiers and civilians.  That July day, when the fighting finally ended, not far from where it began, some suggested this sacrifice had been for naught, and they summed it up with a phrase -- “die for a tie.” 

It took many decades for this memorial to gain its rightful place on this great Mall where we tell our American story.  It has, perhaps, taken even longer to see clearly, and understand fully, the true legacy of your service.  But here, today, we can say with confidence that war was no tie.  Korea was a victory.  When 50 million South Koreans live in freedom -- a vibrant democracy, one of the world’s most dynamic economies, in stark contrast to the repression and poverty of the North -- that’s a victory; that’s your legacy.  (Applause.)

When our soldiers stand firm along the DMZ; when our South Korean friends can go about their lives, knowing that the commitment of the United States to the security of the Republic of Korea will never waver -- that is a victory, and that is your legacy.

When our allies across the Asia Pacific know -- as we have proven in Korea for 60 straight years -- that the United States will remain a force for peace and security and prosperity --that’s a victory; that’s your legacy.

And for generations to come, when history recalls how free nations banded together in a long Cold War, and how we won that war, let it be said that Korea was the first battle -- where freedom held its ground and free peoples refused to yield, that, too, is your victory, your legacy.

Most of all, your legacy burns brightest right here, in a grateful nation that reveres you; in the loving families that cherish you -- like that young soldier with those baby booties swinging from his rifle.  Ever since the war, the story of that soldier has been passed among our Korean War vets.  Some of you may have heard it before.  And many may have wondered what became of that soldier.  Today, six decades later, we now know -- because we found him.  His was Richard Shank, from St. Louis, Missouri.  For his valor in Korea he earned the Silver Star.  Yes, Dick survived the war.  He returned home.  He held his baby boy in his arms.  He was able to be a father to his son. 

But this story doesn’t end there -- because like so many of you, Dick continued to serve in uniform.  His son grew into a man, got married, had children of his own.  Those children are now adults themselves, scattered across the country.  And like so many American families, they still speak with pride of their grandfather’s service in Korea.    

Today, Dick Shank lives in Gainesville, Florida, and I believe he’s watching us this morning.  He’s 84 years old, recovering from a recent fall while roller skating.  (Laughter.) “Life is short,” he says, “and I just keep on living it.”  And one of the ways he keeps living it is by meeting up every year with his buddies from Korea, and recalling the time they shared together in that fight which ended 60 years ago today.

Veterans of the Korean War -- in the spring of your youth you learned how short and precious life can be.  And because of you, millions of people can keep on living it, in freedom and in peace.  Your lives are an inspiration.  Your service will never be forgotten.  You have the thanks of a grateful nation.  And your shining deeds will live -- now and forever. 

May God bless those who gave all in Korea.  May God bless you and your families.  May God bless the alliances that helped secure our prosperity and our security.  And may God continue to bless these United States of America.  Thank you very much.  (Applause.)

   
p
pangpangxiongxiong
政客说赢了,你也信,有人还在麻辣宫喊他赢了呢。搜搜军史专家的吧
p
pangpangxiongxiong
怎么洗也没用,长津湖一战的结果是,美军丢了北朝鲜
p
pangpangxiongxiong
占了我要怎么说,我自己都不知道,你牛
h
hkzs
这是美国总统的官方正式发言,不是什么政客的梦呓。

代表的是美国官方立场。

h
hkzs
美军本来就没想要北朝鲜。美军过三八线的前提就是中国不出兵。中国出兵了,美国就不想要北朝鲜了。相反,志愿军可真的想要解放南韩。

战史表明:二次战役时,联合国军一遇到志愿军就开始往南撤,志愿军拼死阻击都拦不住他们,他们跑得远远比志愿军快,西线联合国军比志愿军早一个多星期到达38线,东线联合国军撤回兴南以后也没有反击,稍事歇息后就带着10万平民上船撤回南方了。

而志愿军在37线遭美军反击后,组织了艰苦卓绝的汉江保卫战,付出了重大代价来阻止联合国军北返38线,后来还组织了第五次战役试图再次南进,结果再次被联合国军击败,才不得不放弃了解放南韩的目标,同意进行停火谈判。

任何知道上述战史事实的人都很清楚,在战场上,是美军打败了志愿军而不是相反。

k
kai2002
别忘记越南,也是宣布胜利撤出的。
h
hkzs
有个现成的例子:志愿军解放了汉城后又被美军打了回来,美军不就占了汉城了吗。你鳖怎么说的?

别忘了,汉城可是朝鲜民主主义人民共和国首都。

有人民日报报道为证:

"【新华社汉城前线四日电】在一九五○年十二月三十一日下午发起新攻势的朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军,已在一月四日中午十二时光复朝鲜民主主义人民共和国首都汉城。解放汉城的朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军受到汉城人民的热烈欢迎。汉城系于一九五○年六月二十八日第一次解放,而于同年九月三十日被美国帝国主义侵略军所攻陷。在美国侵略军占领汉城的三个多月中,汉城人民曾受到了美国侵略军和李承晚匪帮的食人生番式的残酷屠杀。朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军在去年除夕沿朝鲜中部的广阔前线发起新的攻势,在迅速击溃敌人防线并使敌人蒙受巨大损失后,于今年一月四日即光复汉城。朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军在攻势中除解放汉城外并解放了汉城以北的开城、汶山、抱川、议政府等城和朝鲜中部的加平、春川等城。人民军和志愿军的巨大攻势,正在向南发展中。美帝国主义的侵略军和李承晚匪军则正在向南面溃逃。"

来源:人民日版1951年1月5日。https://new.zlck.com/rmrb/news/DWSQ32CF.html

【新华社朝鲜前线十六日电】本社记者报道:朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军在汉江南北两岸抗御美国等侵略军及李匪军的向北进犯,在历时四十九日,给予进犯军以沉重打击后,于本月十四日暂时撤离汉城。

美国等侵略军和李匪军此次对汉城的再度进犯,始于本年一月二十五日,使用兵力达二十三万余众,并配以大量飞机、大炮、坦克。美国侵略军自认挟持优势杀人武器,一举即可占领汉城,再攻即可越占汉城以北地区。但是英勇善战的朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军,在汉江两岸顽强抵抗进犯军的猛烈进攻,使敌人的进展极为缓慢。从水原北向汉城仅三十余公里,美国侵略军在这次进攻中,不但丧失了时间,而且损失了三万以上的官兵,消耗了大量武器、车辆和弹药。而在朝鲜人民军与中国人民志愿军从汉城主动撤离后,美国侵略军才得以再占汉城。

美国侵略军此次向汉城一线的进犯,再次说明优势军事装备不是战争胜负的决定因素,而经常起作用的因素则是掌握武器的人民的士气和战斗力。在此次进犯中,美国侵略军离了飞机、坦克、大炮就不敢前进一步。在这次作战中捉到的美军俘虏供述:美军中的厌战情绪正在增长,并已发生自杀、自伤、逃亡等行动。我军在战场上缴获的美军大批家书中,显著地反映了美军士兵厌战情绪及其国内人民要求和平的情绪的上升。这是美国侵略者发动侵朝战争将近九个月来在侵略军内部所发生的新的变化。

美国侵略军的盲目的新进攻,使他们更深地陷入不能拖出的泥沼中。朝鲜人民军和中国人民志愿军的坚决、英勇和机智的作战,将继续歼灭美国侵略军,使美国侵略军一步步接近于最后的不可避免的彻底失败。

来源:人民日报1951年3月17日。https://new.zlck.com/rmrb/news/HQBBUGXE.html

不就是例子么。

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pangpangxiongxiong
美军不越过38线北进的话,中国根本就不会出兵。中国不但保住了北朝鲜,战略上没有输,而且做到了越战时不战而屈人之兵
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hkzs
美军的确是胜利撤出的。南越政府最后的失败与美军无关,正如未来北韩政府的崩溃与志愿军无关一样。

但是南越政府的失败的确是美国的政治失败。正如北韩政府要是倒台了一定也是中共的政治失败一样。

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pangpangxiongxiong
韩战时,中国屡屡警告美陆军不得越过38度线攻击北朝鲜,美军置若罔闻。越战时,中国划的17度线,美陆军始终没有越过
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pangpangxiongxiong
原来你的依据就是人民日报的宣传,奥巴马这样的政客发言。找点严肃的军史读一读吧,改长进了
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pangpangxiongxiong
川普下台前一直喊“我赢了”呢,也代表美国政府官方立场?
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pangpangxiongxiong
奥巴马说保住了南韩是一个胜利,那么对方保住了北韩难道不是一个胜利?阿Q教真灵验
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Paenia1
在他心中,美国是不可战胜的,尽管事实与此相反。呵呵
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Paenia1
毛主席在战俘问题上拖了了两年,是为了在中苏谈判中得到更大好处。
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hkzs
不,正因为共产党在朝鲜被美军打怕了,越战时,北越才从来不敢像金日成越过38线那样公开越过17度线南下解放南越!

越战中,美军地面部队是和越共(越南南方共和国武装力量)作战,不是和越南民主共和国(北越)正规军作战。不是美国不敢越过17度线,是北越不敢越过17度线。

与中共的欺骗宣传相反,正因为共产党部队在朝鲜遭到了失败,北越才不敢像金日成那样发起祖国解放战争,组织正规军坦克部队大规模公然越过17度线去武统南越。只能寄希望于南越人民通过支持策动南越的同志发起游击战来消耗对手。

甚至最后西贡解放之后,南越的同志们还成了了自己的越南南方共和国,并与中国建立了正式外交关系,成为两个越南。要到一年之后,经两越人民公投,才统一成现在的越南。

估计网宣员们根本没有这些历史背景知识 ,只会胡吹。

越南民主共和国(北越)国旗,见胡志明像后,是红底黄五星:

越南南方共和国(越共,南越)的国旗,是红蓝两色加黄五星:

事实胜于雄辩。

你会发现你被中共灌输的有关朝鲜战争的伟大胜利的谎言在历史事实面前几乎是不堪一击的。

因为,在朝鲜,本来就是共产党被打败了。只是美国把停火线选择在比较靠近38线的地方才给了共产党所谓志愿军胜利的假象。

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hkzs
越战时,是共产党不敢像金日成那样越过17度线,不是美国不敢越过17度线。

看下面的帖子。

中国出兵不等于志愿军打败了美军,相反,是美军打败了志愿军,历史事实是是美军选择在哪里停火,以什么条件停火。只有战场上的胜利者才有权力命令对方按自己的意志行事。不是么?

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hkzs
人民日报的报道是中共官方立场的可靠来源,美国总统的公开演讲是美国官方立场的可靠宣示。你不信这样的一手史料,却信某些人没有根据的瞎

况且还不见得真的明白那些作者到底想说什么。

关于战史,我一直依据战史,从来没有编造过什么,和你的区别不过是我关注战场按时间空间的走势而不是某个下级军人的体会,也不是政客们夸大言辞的渲染。

比如长津湖,中方战史比如可作为教科书的中国人民志愿军战史简编都明确在12月5日前后,志愿军因战斗损失和大批冻伤,失去了战斗力,最终只能凑出几个连队对美军实施追击。美方战史证明,此时陆战一师基本没有受到重大损失,第十军其他部队除第7师那个特遣队千把人之外,根本没有开过一枪,基本都是齐装满员的,在这样的兵力对比下,毫无疑问,如果第十军在12月底不是主动撤往南韩而是对东线第9兵团发起反击,全歼该兵团几乎是板上钉钉的事。

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hkzs
北越都没有过17度线,为啥美军要主动过17度线?那不是成了美国入侵北越了么?

当年美国越过38线是因为金日成先越过38线入侵了南韩,在北韩部队几乎被全歼之后,美国才顺手牵羊越过38线去接收北韩的。

在越南,共产党根本不敢像金日成那样公然越过17度线,给美军以全歼北越军主力的机会,美国当然也就不会有什么越过17度线的可能和必要。

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hkzs
不是,因为朝鲜战争是以共产党试图解放南韩而爆发的,不是因美国试图统一北韩而爆发的。

共产党发起战争的目的彻底失败,联合国军入朝参战的目的达到,当然是美国胜利,是共产党的失败。

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hkzs
川普的这个表态是他作为总统候选人的表态,奥巴马的演讲是作为美国总统的官方表态。

这就是区别。

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pangpangxiongxiong
你跟人民日报一个强调,败退都是“主动撤离”,从胜利走向胜利
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pangpangxiongxiong
结果很清楚,美军没有越线。北约最终灭了南越,美国连个傀儡都没保住。这就是你宣称的胜利
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pangpangxiongxiong
中国参战就是因为美军企图灭北韩统一朝鲜半岛。要不然,中国不会参战
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hkzs
是否主动撤离,要看战前的目标和战役的进程。
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hkzs
不,最终结果是南越的共产党推翻了南越政府,建立了南越共产党政府。两越的统一是两越人民公投的结果

和朝鲜不一样,不是北越最终灭了南越。

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hkzs
那只是后来打不过美军后的借口而已,否则你无法解释为啥50年底志愿军要拒绝停火,要打过38线,解放汉城。

和联合国军越过38线不同,那时中国没有参战,中国参战后联合国军马上就放弃了北韩迅速(比试图阻止联合国军北进的志愿军快一个星期以上)撤回了南韩,并提出了在三八线停火的建议。而志愿军越过三八线解放汉城后,遇到美军反击,不是迅速返回北韩,而是打了艰苦卓绝的汉江阻击战,试图保住自己夺取的汉城,被迫放弃后,还发动了五次战役试图再次夺取汉城。在连续遭到挫败后才不得不接受了之前自己拒绝的停火谈判。

所以,从战史结果看而不是从宣传腔调看,联合国军是主动放弃了北韩,志愿军是被联合国军击败而不得不放弃了汉城。联合国军放弃北韩是很干脆的,没有什么暂时告别鸭绿江之类,但志愿军被迫放弃汉城是很不愿意的,还说是暂时放弃,还存在那一天打回来的念头。这说明,中国出兵的目的不是只要保住北韩,而是要努力打败美军,解放全朝鲜。

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hkzs
美国有几十部关于朝鲜战争的电影,维基上就有列表。再次证明:无知才会粉红。

United States[edit] The Steel Helmet, 1951 Fixed Bayonets!, 1951 Korea Patrol, 1951 I Want You, 1951 Tokyo File 212, 1951 Submarine Command, 1951 Japanese War Bride, 1952 Retreat, Hell!, 1952 One Minute to Zero, 1952 Battle Zone, 1952 Flat Top, 1952 Battle Circus, 1953 Sabre Jet, 1953 The Glory Brigade, 1953 Take the High Ground!, 1953 Cease Fire, 1953 The Bamboo Prison, 1954 Prisoner of War, 1954 Dragonfly Squadron, 1954 Men of the Fighting Lady, 1954 The Bridges at Toko-Ri, 1954 Love Is a Many-Splendored Thing, 1955 The McConnell Story, 1955 Target Zero, 1955 Hold Back the Night, 1956 The Rack, 1956 Men in War, 1957 Battle Hymn, 1957 Sayonara, 1957 Time Limit, 1957 Tank Battalion, 1958 The Hunters, 1958 Pork Chop Hill, 1959 All the Young Men, 1960 Cry for Happy, 1961 Marines, Let's Go, 1961 Sniper's Ridge, 1961 The Manchurian Candidate, 1962 The Nun and the Sergeant, 1962 War Hunt, 1962 The Hook, 1963 War Is Hell, 1963 The Young and The Brave, 1963 Iron Angel, 1964 Sergeant Ryker, 1968 M*A*S*H, 1970 The Reluctant Heroes, 1971 MacArthur, 1977 Inchon 1981 (joint US-ROK production) For The Boys, 1991
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wuzhong82
特别赞成你说的,无知才会粉红。
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xrh513
不要忘记,美军是计划圣诞前到鸭绿江边饮马的,办到了吗?