Democrats would end backdoor Roth conversions

Leiss
楼主 (未名空间)

as well as mega-backdoor, among other reforms.
http://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/13/house-democrats-propose-new-retirement-plan-rules-for-the-wealthy.html

"""

Contribution limits

Current law lets taxpayers make IRA contributions regardless of account size.

However, the legislation would prohibit individuals from making more
contributions to a Roth IRA or traditional IRA if the total value of their
combined IRA and defined-contribution plan exceeds $10 million. A defined-
contribution plan is a 401(k) plan or other similar workplace savings plan.

The policy’s purpose would be “to avoid subsidizing retirement savings
once account balances reach very high levels,” according to a proposal
outline.

That limit would apply to single taxpayers with more than $400,000 of
taxable income. The threshold would be $450,000 for married taxpayers filing jointly and $425,000 for heads of household.

RMDs for ‘mega’ IRAs

Individuals whose combined traditional IRA, Roth IRA and defined-
contribution retirement accounts exceed $10 million at year’s end would
have to withdraw at least 50% of the excess the following year.

Those with account totals exceeding $20 million must pull from Roth IRAs and 401(k) plans first.

These new required minimum distributions for mega IRAs would only be
required for savers whose taxable income exceeds the same thresholds
identified above for the contribution limits.

Backdoor Roth

There are income limits to contribute to Roth IRAs. In 2021, single
taxpayers can’t add money to such accounts if their income exceeds $140,000.

But current law allows for “backdoor” contributions to Roth IRAs. That can be achieved by converting a traditional IRA or Roth 401(k) account, which
don’t carry income limits. There are income limits that determine whether
contributions to traditional IRAs are tax-deductible or not.

Savers pay tax on the conversions, but their future investment growth and
retirement distributions are tax-free.

The legislation would end the backdoor Roth IRA strategy by eliminating Roth conversions for both IRAs and workplace plans such as 401(k) plans.

The policy would apply at the same income thresholds listed above. It would count for distributions, transfers and contributions made in taxable years
beginning after Dec. 31, 2031.

Mega backdoor Roth

The so-called “mega-backdoor Roth” strategy uses a principle similar to
that of the backdoor Roth.

The strategy lets high earners save up to $58,000 in a 401(k) plan — more
than the traditional $19,500 contribution limit — using a type of after-tax 401(k) bucket. Savers then convert that savings to a Roth account, once
again yielding the benefit of tax-free investment growth.

Democrats’ legislation would end the mega-backdoor Roth by prohibiting all after-tax contributions in workplace plans and prohibiting after-tax IRA
contributions from being converted to a Roth account.

This policy would apply for everyone, regardless of income level.

"""

i
insect9

这是税法中留给中产的唯一loophole吧。dem操中产又快又好。

【 在 Leiss 的大作中提到: 】
:
:as well as mega-backdoor, among other reforms.
:http://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/13/house-democrats-propose-new-retirement-plan-rules-for-the-wealthy.html
:
:

s
swanswan

超过10米账号,这是给bcq量身定做的。
再不退休就是傻了

BCQ

一开始就不该有
但是大家习惯了
想拿回去
难!
lightroom

拿Peter Thiel作典型,搞中产
BCQ

401K/IRA没那么多
【 在 swanswan (swan) 的大作中提到: 】
: 超过10米账号,这是给bcq量身定做的。
: 再不退休就是傻了

f
fantasist

哪个中产ira里有10m?

【 在 lightroom (吃一条鱼,思考一个问题,法号三丰) 的大作中提到: 】
: 拿Peter Thiel作典型,搞中产

lightroom

好像是遗产税流产了,用这个补缺口。BCQ还是收益者
lightroom

backdoor and mega都要没了

【 在 fantasist (一) 的大作中提到: 】
: 哪个中产ira里有10m?

Leiss

stepped-up cost basis 才是最不公平、最应该先废除的

lightroom

富人估计拿政治捐款作为要挟

【 在 Leiss (徕司) 的大作中提到: 】
: stepped-up cost basis 才是最不公平、最应该先废除的

BCQ

确实
我快退休了
mega backdoor用处不大
而且需要公司401K配合
backdoor对10M以下还是保留的吧
感觉这个bill是我起草的
LOL
【 在 lightroom (吃一条鱼,思考一个问题,法号三丰) 的大作中提到: 】
: 好像是遗产税流产了,用这个补缺口。BCQ还是收益者

t
test3

agree. step up only benefit the super rich

【 在 Leiss (徕司) 的大作中提到: 】
: stepped-up cost basis 才是最不公平、最应该先废除的
BCQ

议员们自己有不少资产等着step-up呢
【 在 test3 (test3) 的大作中提到: 】
: agree. step up only benefit the super rich

BCQ

其实取消了backdoor更好
我就不用纠结了
现在整天琢磨如何最高效地转肉丝
头疼欲裂

niuheliang

啃着咸菜的命

操中南海的心

【 在 Leiss (徕司) 的大作中提到: 】
: combined IRA and defined-contribution plan exceeds $10 million. A defined-

s
swanswan

更头痛了。

没了backdoor roth, non deductible ira还是比非退休账号强一点?请砖家们分析。
谢谢。

【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】

: 其实取消了backdoor更好

: 我就不用纠结了

: 现在整天琢磨如何最高效地转肉丝

: 头疼欲裂

BCQ

没有backdoor
after tax IRA/401K就没意义了
不要搞
除非你用IRA炒股
有很多短期收益
【 在 swanswan (swan) 的大作中提到: 】
: 更头痛了。
: 没了backdoor roth, non deductible ira还是比非退休账号强一点?请砖家们分析。
: 谢谢。
:
: 其实取消了backdoor更好
:
: 我就不用纠结了
:
: 现在整天琢磨如何最高效地转肉丝
:
: 头疼欲裂
:

i
insect9

哪儿写了10M的账号?

【 在 swanswan 的大作中提到: 】
:
:超过10米账号,这是给bcq量身定做的。
:再不退休就是傻了
:
:

s
swanswan

比普通账号还是强啊,收益部分虽然收税,但是没有compound。

【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】

: 没有backdoor

: after tax IRA/401K就没意义了

: 不要搞

s
swanswan

应该有个公式,存的长达几十年的话,After tax 401k避免compound收税带来的好处强
于个人所得税对lt capital gain税率的弱势。

但是更头痛更算不清楚了。

lightroom

这个很简单的数学公式。结论是如果是股神每年20-30%收益,当然核算。如果低于10%
,没啥大利还缺乏流动性

【 在 swanswan (swan) 的大作中提到: 】
: 应该有个公式,存的长达几十年的话,After tax 401k避免compound收税带来的好处强
: 于个人所得税对lt capital gain税率的弱势。
: 但是更头痛更算不清楚了。

BCQ

普通账户不卖交啥税?
等退休了用钱时
每年有八万long term capital gain的免税额
留给子孙还有step-up
【 在 swanswan (swan) 的大作中提到: 】
: 应该有个公式,存的长达几十年的话,After tax 401k避免compound收税带来的好处强
: 于个人所得税对lt capital gain税率的弱势。
: 但是更头痛更算不清楚了。

n
newsguy

我操,进了这贴才发现那么多人有千万美元的退休账号。
膜拜

【 在 Leiss (徕司) 的大作中提到: 】
: as well as mega-backdoor, among other reforms.
:
: http://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/13/house-democrats-propose-new-retirement-plan-rules-for-the-wealthy.html
:
: """
:
: Contribution limits
:
: Current law lets taxpayers make IRA contributions regardless of account
size.
:
: However, the legislation would prohibit individuals from making more
: contributions to a Roth IRA or traditional IRA if the total value of their
: combined IRA and defined-contribution plan exceeds $10 million. A defined-: contribution plan is a 401(k) plan or other similar workplace savings plan.
:
: The policy’s purpose would be “to avoid subsidizing retirement savings
: once account balances reach very high levels,” according to a proposal
: outline.
:
: That limit would apply to single taxpayers with more than $400,000 of
: taxable income. The threshold would be $450,000 for married taxpayers
filing
: jointly and $425,000 for heads of household.
:
:
: RMDs for ‘mega’ IRAs
:
: Individuals whose combined traditional IRA, Roth IRA and defined-
: contribution retirement accounts exceed $10 million at year’s end would
: have to withdraw at least 50% of the excess the following year.
:
: Those with account totals exceeding $20 million must pull from Roth IRAs
and
: 401(k) plans first.
:
: These new required minimum distributions for mega IRAs would only be
: required for savers whose taxable income exceeds the same thresholds
: identified above for the contribution limits.
:
:
: Backdoor Roth
:
: There are income limits to contribute to Roth IRAs. In 2021, single
: taxpayers can’t add money to such accounts if their income exceeds $140,
000.
:
: But current law allows for “backdoor” contributions to Roth IRAs. That
can
: be achieved by converting a traditional IRA or Roth 401(k) account, which
: don’t carry income limits. There are income limits that determine whether
: contributions to traditional IRAs are tax-deductible or not.
:
: Savers pay tax on the conversions, but their future investment growth and : retirement distributions are tax-free.
:
: The legislation would end the backdoor Roth IRA strategy by eliminating
Roth
: conversions for both IRAs and workplace plans such as 401(k) plans.
:
: The policy would apply at the same income thresholds listed above. It
would
: count for distributions, transfers and contributions made in taxable years
: beginning after Dec. 31, 2031.
:
:
: Mega backdoor Roth
:
: The so-called “mega-backdoor Roth” strategy uses a principle similar to : that of the backdoor Roth.
:
: The strategy lets high earners save up to $58,000 in a 401(k) plan — more
: than the traditional $19,500 contribution limit — using a type of after-
tax
: 401(k) bucket. Savers then convert that savings to a Roth account, once
: again yielding the benefit of tax-free investment growth.
:
: Democrats’ legislation would end the mega-backdoor Roth by prohibiting
all
: after-tax contributions in workplace plans and prohibiting after-tax IRA
: contributions from being converted to a Roth account.
:
: This policy would apply for everyone, regardless of income level.
:
: """
BCQ

啥叫compound收税?
没听说过
【 在 swanswan (swan) 的大作中提到: 】
: 应该有个公式,存的长达几十年的话,After tax 401k避免compound收税带来的好处强
: 于个人所得税对lt capital gain税率的弱势。
: 但是更头痛更算不清楚了。

s
swanswan

不对,如果每年%8没有compound税率,40年收益是21倍
如果假设普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收,6%回报40年后是10倍。

即使前者取出来时候付税,后者完全不交税。还是比后者强那么一丢丢

【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】

: 普通账户不卖交啥税?

: 等退休了用钱时

: 每年有八万long term capital gain的免税额

: 留给子孙还有step-up

BCQ

为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?
【 在 swanswan (swan) 的大作中提到: 】
: 不对,如果每年%8没有compound税率,40年收益是21倍
: 如果假设普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收,6%回报40年后是10倍。
: 即使前者取出来时候付税,后者完全不交税。还是比后者强那么一丢丢
:
: 普通账户不卖交啥税?
:
: 等退休了用钱时
:
: 每年有八万long term capital gain的免税额
:
: 留给子孙还有step-up
:

niuheliang

炒个股长持不了几十年。

【 在 BCQ (不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
: 为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?

s
swanswan

Dividend以及rebalance造成的realized capital gain

【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】

: 为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?

dakedo



【 在 Leiss (徕司) 的大作中提到: 】
: as well as mega-backdoor, among other reforms.
: http://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/13/house-democrats-propose-new-retirement-plan-rules-for-the-wealthy.html
: """
: Contribution limits
: Current law lets taxpayers make IRA contributions regardless of account
size.
: However, the legislation would prohibit individuals from making more
: contributions to a Roth IRA or traditional IRA if the total value of their
: combined IRA and defined-contribution plan exceeds $10 million. A defined-: contribution plan is a 401(k) plan or other similar workplace savings plan.
: The policy’s purpose would be “to avoid subsidizing retirement savings
: ...................

t
test3

我十几年不能contribute了。

【 在 BCQ (不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
: 其实取消了backdoor更好
: 我就不用纠结了
: 现在整天琢磨如何最高效地转肉丝
: 头疼欲裂
r
ragdoll

所有的退休帐号加起来10m: the total value of their combined IRA and defined-
contribution plan exceeds $10 million.版上的大老们应该有
i
insect9

全仓SPY,不rebalance。后期的债券和现金仓位,通过新进入自己打比例进入债券部位而逐步进行。

【 在 swanswan 的大作中提到: 】
:
:Dividend以及rebalance造成的realized capital gain
:
:
:【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
:
:: 为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?
:
:
:

lightroom

其实是insider trading. 但是SEC不查退休账号。这些人钻空子

【 在 newsguy (newsguy) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我操,进了这贴才发现那么多人有千万美元的退休账号。
: 膜拜
: size.
: filing
: and
: 000.
: can
: Roth
: would
: tax
: ...................

niuheliang

复利增长很快死工资就balance不了了。这时就应该FIRE,享受8万的room来rebalance。

【 在 insect9 (insect9) 的大作中提到: 】
: 全仓SPY,不rebalance。后期的债券和现金仓位,通过新进入自己打比例进入债券部位
: 而逐步进行。
: :
: :Dividend以及rebalance造成的realized capital gain
: :
: :
: :【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: :: 为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?
: :
: ...................

Leiss

通过增量来动态达到目标比例,实质是DCA买法,结果其实跟rebalance不同。

【 在 insect9 (insect9) 的大作中提到: 】
: 全仓SPY,不rebalance。后期的债券和现金仓位,通过新进入自己打比例进入债券部位
: 而逐步进行。
: :
: :Dividend以及rebalance造成的realized capital gain
: :
: :
: :【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: :: 为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?
: :
: ...................

Leiss

TLS没搞backdoor?

【 在 test3 (test3) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我十几年不能contribute了。

oOOo

才house离法律还早呢

BCQ

属实
全仓大盘
不用rebalance
60/40过时了
【 在 insect9 (insect9) 的大作中提到: 】
: 全仓SPY,不rebalance。后期的债券和现金仓位,通过新进入自己打比例进入债券部位
: 而逐步进行。
: :
: :Dividend以及rebalance造成的realized capital gain
: :
: :
: :【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: :: 为啥普通账号每年扣掉2%的税收?
: :
: ...................

i
insect9

当然不同,但退休金本来在50岁后就需要随年龄不断调整比例,本来就不是rebalance。

【 在 Leiss 的大作中提到: 】
:
:通过增量来动态达到目标比例,实质是DCA买法,结果其实跟rebalance不同。
:
:【 在 insect9 (insect9) 的大作中提到: 】
:: 全仓SPY,不rebalance。后期的债券和现金仓位,通过新进入自己打比例进入债券
部位
:: 而逐步进行。
:: :
:: :Dividend以及rebalance造成的realized capital gain
:: :
:: :
:: :【 在 BCQ(不差钱) 的大作中提到: 】
:: :

t
test3

没有income。

【 在 Leiss (徕司) 的大作中提到: 】
: TLS没搞backdoor?
:
: 【 在 test3 (test3) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 我十几年不能contribute了。