统称pfas，遍布世界，一种被淘汰就换下一种，估计没办法避开PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) are a group of man-made chemicals that have been widely used since the 1940s in various consumer and industrial products due to their water and oil-repellent properties. They are persistent in the environment and can accumulate in the human body, raising concerns about potential health effects.[1][2] ## Key Points about PFAS - PFAS are found in many products like non-stick cookware, water-resistant clothing, food packaging, and firefighting foams.[1][5] - They are highly persistent and can contaminate water, soil, and air, leading to widespread exposure.[1][4] - Some PFAS have been linked to harmful health effects, including increased cholesterol levels, reduced vaccine response, liver enzyme changes, and certain cancers.[2][4] - The EPA has set limits on six PFAS in drinking water, but thousands of other PFAS are not regulated.[4] - The FDA has banned the use of certain PFAS in food packaging and is working to reduce dietary exposure.[3] - Several states have taken action to ban or restrict PFAS in products and set drinking water standards.[4] While progress has been made in phasing out some PFAS, their persistence and potential health risks remain a concern, prompting ongoing research, regulations, and cleanup efforts.[4][5] Sources [1] PFAS Explained | US EPA https://www.epa.gov/pfas/pfas-explained [2] Potential health effects of PFAS chemicals | ATSDR https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/health-effects/index.html [3] Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) - FDA https://www.fda.gov/food/environmental-contaminants-food/and-polyfluoroalkyl-substances-pfas [4] “Forever Chemicals” Called PFAS Show Up in Your Food, Clothes ... https://www.nrdc.org/stories/forever-chemicals-called-pfas-show-your-food-clothes-and-home [5] Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances
应该不会。可以比较涂层开始溶解的温度和日常做饭Oven 的温度。 下面是PTFE 温度： While PTFE is stable at lower temperatures, it begins to deteriorate at temperatures of about 260 °C (500 °F), it decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F), and pyrolysis occurs at temperatures above 400 °C (752 °F).[24] The main decomposition products are fluorocarbongases and a sublimate, including tetrafluoroethylene (TFE) and difluorocarbeneradicals (RCF2).[24] An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).Above those temperatures the degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans (polymer fume fever),[64] although in humans those symptoms disappear within a day or two of being moved to fresh air. 我们日用的oven 温度： A moderate oven has a range of 350–375 °F (180–190 °C), and a hot oven has temperature set to 400–450 °F (200–230 °C).[1][2] A fast oven has a range of 450-500 °F (230–260 °C)。
怀念2019 发表于 2024-05-28 14:46 应该不会。可以比较涂层开始溶解的温度和日常做饭Oven 的温度。 下面是PTFE 温度： While PTFE is stable at lower temperatures, it begins to deteriorate at temperatures of about 260 °C (500 °F), it decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F), and pyrolysis occurs at temperatures above 400 °C (752 °F).[24] The main decomposition products are fluorocarbongases and a sublimate, including tetrafluoroethylene (TFE) and difluorocarbeneradicals (RCF2).[24] An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).Above those temperatures the degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans (polymer fume fever),[64] although in humans those symptoms disappear within a day or two of being moved to fresh air. 我们日用的oven 温度： A moderate oven has a range of 350–375 °F (180–190 °C), and a hot oven has temperature set to 400–450 °F (200–230 °C).[1][2] A fast oven has a range of 450-500 °F (230–260 °C)。
怀念2019 发表于 2024-05-28 14:46 应该不会。可以比较涂层开始溶解的温度和日常做饭Oven 的温度。 下面是PTFE 温度： While PTFE is stable at lower temperatures, it begins to deteriorate at temperatures of about 260 °C (500 °F), it decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F), and pyrolysis occurs at temperatures above 400 °C (752 °F).[24] The main decomposition products are fluorocarbongases and a sublimate, including tetrafluoroethylene (TFE) and difluorocarbeneradicals (RCF2).[24] An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).Above those temperatures the degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans (polymer fume fever),[64] although in humans those symptoms disappear within a day or two of being moved to fresh air. 我们日用的oven 温度： A moderate oven has a range of 350–375 °F (180–190 °C), and a hot oven has temperature set to 400–450 °F (200–230 °C).[1][2] A fast oven has a range of 450-500 °F (230–260 °C)。
当年看了阿淇博士的视频后就不再买不粘锅了：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZekTczvMhQ 1. Teflon and other similar non-stick products are not only vulnerable to heat but also scratches A scratched non-stick pan not only loses the non-stick property due to enhanced Van der Waals force, but also loses the integrity and more easily decomposes into the harmful compounds. A rough analogy is a tear in your jean, which continues to fall apart thread by thread. 2. Some studies claim that if one does not overheat the non-stick pans, the amount of compounds that are released into the food is equivalent to the existing amount in our environment, therefore they are harmless. However, these compounds in the environment are completely artificial, and it has been accumulating, fast, due to the massive production to meet the versatile application demand of human. Check out out interview with Dr. Liu for more detail.
当年看了阿淇博士的视频后就不再买不粘锅了：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZekTczvMhQ 1. Teflon and other similar non-stick products are not only vulnerable to heat but also scratches A scratched non-stick pan not only loses the non-stick property due to enhanced Van der Waals force, but also loses the integrity and more easily decomposes into the harmful compounds. A rough analogy is a tear in your jean, which continues to fall apart thread by thread. 2. Some studies claim that if one does not overheat the non-stick pans, the amount of compounds that are released into the food is equivalent to the existing amount in our environment, therefore they are harmless. However, these compounds in the environment are completely artificial, and it has been accumulating, fast, due to the massive production to meet the versatile application demand of human. Check out out interview with Dr. Liu for more detail. AMRITADD 发表于 2024-05-29 10:26
信民科得永生嘛。
这里关键的问题就是，首先，这涂层就算分解了，出来的是什么有害物质？害处有多大？ 直接的比较就是：如果不用不粘锅，食物更容易粘锅糊底，食物烧糊的那些有害物质，二者相比，谁更严重？ 另外一个重要的问题就是量，所谓“。。。However, these compounds in the environment are completely artificial, and it has been accumulating,。。。”，一口不粘锅的涂层，总质量就那么多。就算全分解了，也最多就是这个总质量的涂层分解（大家自个儿想这涂层有多少量）而已。不像那些容易沾的食物哦 - 每次做菜可都是新的食物，每次都有新的东西能新糊一把 - 这个才是真正“accumulating"的东西。
这里关键的问题就是，首先，这涂层就算分解了，出来的是什么有害物质？害处有多大？ 直接的比较就是：如果不用不粘锅，食物更容易粘锅糊底，食物烧糊的那些有害物质，二者相比，谁更严重？ 另外一个重要的问题就是量，所谓“。。。However, these compounds in the environment are completely artificial, and it has been accumulating,。。。”，一口不粘锅的涂层，总质量就那么多。就算全分解了，也最多就是这个总质量的涂层分解（大家自个儿想这涂层有多少量）而已。不像那些容易沾的食物哦 - 每次做菜可都是新的食物，每次都有新的东西能新糊一把 - 这个才是真正“accumulating"的东西。
“大火高温炝锅会分解PTFE而产生各种有毒物质”
没有这种涂层的，大伙高温炝锅，烧糊了锅里的各种食物，也会产生各种有害物质。而且食物粘在锅底，更容易有各种糊掉致癌的物质出现。这些有害物质，与不粘锅那涂层“高温炝锅会分解”而产生的有害物质相比，有个巨大的差别，就是食物粘锅糊底出现的有害物质，是源源不断的 - 你只要做饭，就要往锅里放新的食物。而涂层，总量就那么多，不会再生，分解完了就没有啦。
没有具体的对比（有害物质是什么？毒性有多大？量有多少？），这就没啥意义。
没错，所以号称用铁锅可以高温爆炒的，其实是换了一种有害物质而已。所以关键在于不要高温爆炒。那有人要说了：这活着有嘛意思？
活着的意义是能被毒死。。。
## Key Points about PFAS
- PFAS are found in many products like non-stick cookware, water-resistant clothing, food packaging, and firefighting foams.[1][5] - They are highly persistent and can contaminate water, soil, and air, leading to widespread exposure.[1][4] - Some PFAS have been linked to harmful health effects, including increased cholesterol levels, reduced vaccine response, liver enzyme changes, and certain cancers.[2][4] - The EPA has set limits on six PFAS in drinking water, but thousands of other PFAS are not regulated.[4] - The FDA has banned the use of certain PFAS in food packaging and is working to reduce dietary exposure.[3] - Several states have taken action to ban or restrict PFAS in products and set drinking water standards.[4]
While progress has been made in phasing out some PFAS, their persistence and potential health risks remain a concern, prompting ongoing research, regulations, and cleanup efforts.[4][5]
Sources [1] PFAS Explained | US EPA https://www.epa.gov/pfas/pfas-explained [2] Potential health effects of PFAS chemicals | ATSDR https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/health-effects/index.html [3] Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) - FDA https://www.fda.gov/food/environmental-contaminants-food/and-polyfluoroalkyl-substances-pfas [4] “Forever Chemicals” Called PFAS Show Up in Your Food, Clothes ... https://www.nrdc.org/stories/forever-chemicals-called-pfas-show-your-food-clothes-and-home [5] Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances
所以你的意思是，用带涂层的water boiler，电饭锅，都是无毒的？
不要大火爆炒是相对安全的。特富龙主要是在高温下分解。 除了高压锅，水煮怎么也不会上100度。
是啊，所以现在有三个选择 吃焦糊的毒素+不粘锅高温毒素， 或者是只吃焦糊的毒素， 或者吃软塔塔的低温烹调食物。 大家伙看着办啊。
如果涂层只含PTFE, 原理上是这样的。
软塌塌是因为含水，不是因为低温。我天天用不平底不粘锅煎饼，超市买的全麦totilla放一片，再放cheese，中火煎到cheese融化，饼下面就焦黄了，吃起来可脆了。我给女儿做的时候用黄油煎，更加香脆
当然最终取决于个人选择和技术啊
想要搞清楚，起码等50年，看用不粘锅长大的一代的健康状况。
现阶段，见仁见智，愿意当小白鼠的，随便用。胆小的比如我，避开不粘锅，用老祖宗传下来的铁锅。
这个铁锅我就一直有点困惑，特别是为了”养锅”不能洗得太干净。
是不是理论上用不锈钢锅不糊锅最安全？
对的，铁锅不沾其实是靠一层烧焦老油，感觉还是有隐患。 所以最终我选择了不锈钢锅。但是有的菜还是必须用不粘锅才行，比如煎豆腐炒土豆这种。
陶瓷是生产工艺，其实不沾材料还是PTFE。可能会更经刮，但是一定不能解决高温分解问题。
下面是PTFE 温度： While PTFE is stable at lower temperatures, it begins to deteriorate at temperatures of about 260 °C (500 °F), it decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F), and pyrolysis occurs at temperatures above 400 °C (752 °F).[24] The main decomposition products are fluorocarbongases and a sublimate, including tetrafluoroethylene (TFE) and difluorocarbeneradicals (RCF2).[24] An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).Above those temperatures the degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans (polymer fume fever),[64] although in humans those symptoms disappear within a day or two of being moved to fresh air.
我们日用的oven 温度： A moderate oven has a range of 350–375 °F (180–190 °C), and a hot oven has temperature set to 400–450 °F (200–230 °C).[1][2] A fast oven has a range of 450-500 °F (230–260 °C)。
不锈钢锅太难掌握了。。。
oven是说的烤箱吧，也不会有局部过热的情况。炒菜那个叫stove，温度要高很多，特别是直接接触火焰的地方。
谢谢科普啊，爆炒还是用铁锅吧。
既然有毒物质是来自于高温油分解，不是来自于铁锅本身，那你用不锈钢锅爆炒还是会有啊
高分子是同种分子但有一定范围分子量的混合物，分子量低的组分比较不耐高温，说一种高分子在哪个温度下降解，其实也是有个温度范围的。 当然谈毒性不能离开剂量，只是我们没法控制剂量的时候还是要尽量远离毒性。
铁锅除了新鲜炒菜的油，还靠一层反复焦化的老油养锅。所以还是比不锈钢锅问题更大。
没错，那个特氟龙的温度上限也是很有问题的。并不是说低于这个上限它就不分解。
看下来其实没有什么既方便，又安全的锅。所以这个问题其实无解，最终还是看开点儿，改进生活方式，从别的方面获取一些有益健康的东西吧，比如不熬夜，吃坚果等等。
老油如果每次都被新鲜的油萃取出来被人吃掉，又有新鲜的油补充进去，那就无所谓老油。如果没有被萃取出来，那更无所谓。
这句话流传太广了已经是常识，都不需要学化学的来说了；问题这些毒素会在体内积累吗？时间长了剂量会上去吗？
跟我以前查到资料一致。 不粘锅涂层在260摄氏度下稳定，温度再高就开始分解，三四百度的温度下分解加速。
平常炒锅，只要一冒油烟，温度就很容易上400度。
这样看，用不粘锅只炖煮问题不大，但煎炒烹炸并不保险。
家有小鸟的，在不粘锅开始冒烟时，就会被分解出的气体毒死，人对毒性耐受强，顶多打喷嚏，有流感症状，呼吸几天新鲜空气就恢复了。但是长期这样搞，谁知道会得什么怪病?
似乎从来没有看到过关于粘合剂的说法。我一直纳闷儿，世界上最不沾的材料，是如何粘接在锅体上的？那些东西到底有没有监管？算了，不能深究。
不是抬杠，可是老祖宗的寿命低多了
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我的猜测：很有可能没错！
麻烦的是家里的意见不统一。
明白了
3M氟化物鼻祖已经有前员工出来说3M原来压着她不让把实验结果公布了，要是没啥事怎么会压一个普通员工
这个问题提得好！ 短命老祖宗里有多少是因为用铁锅吃饭造成的呢？
我见过最科学的解释：
科学防粘锅（上）炒什么都不粘 youtu.be/watch?v=OD5MFtNOcc8
系统提示：若遇到视频无法播放请点击下方链接
https://www.youtube.com/embed/OD5MFtNOcc8
我怎么没中过毒什么的 用了几十年
你们的爷爷奶奶寿命都很低吗？我家亲戚老人没有寿命低的，我们乡下村子老人大多在6～70以上，祖祖辈辈用铁锅，很少进医院。以前的人均寿命低肯定因为婴儿高夭折率太高造成的。
我的爷爷奶奶，我爸的爷爷奶奶，都用了一辈子的铁锅，都健康的活到90几岁才因为太老了去世。
你这个靠谱。我们之前做xxx实验，🈶很多干扰。我跟她们说，DCM不要用dispenser。 所有的人都跟我说没有关系因为dispenser是ptfe做的。我说我不相信长时间浸泡不会有问题，坚决不用，宁可新开一瓶。我的数据一直就相对好看。最后她们去做各个污染源调查发现果然那瓶一直浸泡dispenser就是有降解（当时已经泡了半年多了）
不过话说回来，我们家大部分都是不粘锅。我是真的不会开锅。之前倒是有一个铁锅我用得还顺手，可是它真的好重。。。放弃了
锅不高温操作，是冷藏用的？
啊不对吧，老油没错，但不是烧焦啊，是特别油洗不掉了那种
陶瓷杯子也不好吗？我记得哪里好像说陶瓷涂层也不够安全？我特喜欢用mug，比玻璃杯多个把手感觉好多了呀
經驗是開什麽鍋都ㄧ樣 就是油不清洗乾淨附著在鍋上來達成不沾 不然就是得耗時間熱鍋放熱油來達成不沾 現代生活講究效率 尤其趕著開飯手忙腳亂 不銹鋼鍋輕也耐刷凊洗 但是油下去表面就不見影縱 容易食用太多油 鑄鐵鍋好重 最常用最後還是不沾鍋各項器具
實在無法接受不洗乾淨 心裡有障礙無法放過 ㄧ定可洗乾淨但好處就沒了 所以ㄧ只鑄鐵鍋20年還是美麗如新 淪爲擺設用途 做什麽都少點意思 最少用用最久 跟玻璃一樣長久不換
1. Teflon and other similar non-stick products are not only vulnerable to heat but also scratches A scratched non-stick pan not only loses the non-stick property due to enhanced Van der Waals force, but also loses the integrity and more easily decomposes into the harmful compounds. A rough analogy is a tear in your jean, which continues to fall apart thread by thread. 2. Some studies claim that if one does not overheat the non-stick pans, the amount of compounds that are released into the food is equivalent to the existing amount in our environment, therefore they are harmless. However, these compounds in the environment are completely artificial, and it has been accumulating, fast, due to the massive production to meet the versatile application demand of human. Check out out interview with Dr. Liu for more detail.
没错，铁锅还有个缺点就是油烟大，这也可能是在美亚裔女性肺癌风险高的主要原因
https://youtu.be/0uATfA_WoTA?si=uJfSY0jLYJd523YE 这视频里说陶瓷涂层的甚至可能比一般不粘锅更毒，不过是6年前的视频了，如今工艺有没有进步就不清楚了
信民科得永生嘛。
这里关键的问题就是，首先，这涂层就算分解了，出来的是什么有害物质？害处有多大？ 直接的比较就是：如果不用不粘锅，食物更容易粘锅糊底，食物烧糊的那些有害物质，二者相比，谁更严重？
另外一个重要的问题就是量，所谓“。。。However, these compounds in the environment are completely artificial, and it has been accumulating,。。。”，一口不粘锅的涂层，总质量就那么多。就算全分解了，也最多就是这个总质量的涂层分解（大家自个儿想这涂层有多少量）而已。不像那些容易沾的食物哦 - 每次做菜可都是新的食物，每次都有新的东西能新糊一把 - 这个才是真正“accumulating"的东西。
什么文科？人家是化工博士。。。 这里提出了不粘锅的毒害，没说其它锅就一定无害啊。。。 而且生产和使用不粘锅对环境的污染是很大的，造成的毒害不局限于对用的人，光是美国的PFAS pollution map就够触目惊心了
同意，我也一直认为那层老油也有隐患，而且铁锅做出来所谓“锅气”的味道，不就是老油和生成的苯化物的味道吗？
中餐廳超高溫快速爆炒的鍋氣【香氣】 蔥薑蒜真的是較香 不過用油也超多
文科？我可没说文科。
说的是民科。化工博士能告诉你这东西是什么材料，能告诉你分解成什么，能告诉你有毒。但具体的量有多大？与不用不粘锅做同样的烹调的比较呢？这些才是论证这个问题（我们讨论的实质不是“不粘锅的毒害”本身，而是不粘锅与其他锅做菜时毒害的比较 - 就好像你说“就不再买不粘锅了”的实质不光是不用不粘锅，而是你换了其他锅用）的合理方法。脱离这个方法去得到结论，就是民科啊。他知不知道这些？当然可能知道。但他不讨论，这就是典型的民科方式。
“而且生产和使用不粘锅对环境的污染是很大的，造成的毒害不局限于对用的人” - 这是另外一个问题。愿不愿意考虑这个问题当然是个人的选择，但我们这里主要讨论的，显然不是这个。你如果很在乎这个，说这也是你考虑的重点之一，当然可以说。但当别人反驳说前面那种民科研究对不粘锅使用者危害的结论时，拿这个出来说事是没意义的。
这根本不是一回事
PFAS 是一个化学物的群体，有些有毒有些没毒，这个群体很大，完成所有的毒性测试是不可能的任务，欧盟的左婊们，大笔一挥就把所有的PFAS给禁了，然后发行 各种污染地图，造成人民恐惧，增加政策的支持性。 就跟加州Prop65一样，什么都致癌，但是不谈剂量跟时间。 讲毒性不谈剂量和时间就是耍流氓。
大多数不锈钢含有毒重金属
还可以这样偷换概念来忽悠消费者？
那就不冒油烟呗。
“长期这样”？谁家的不粘锅涂层是分解了还能再生，再分解再重生？
如果不是神物，就是现实中的物质，你就算把那涂层全刮下来，能有多少？
前面有人说了，“如果说每天都高温煎炸，其实做饭过程中产生的苯并芘，甚至油烟危害都更大些” - 这些东西，可是每天都有新材料补给的，确实是能源源不断的提供的。而且，相比不粘锅，那些会沾底儿的锅，高温烹炒的时候，出现这些的机会明显会更大哦。。。
不粘锅这种整天担心还要伺候的太麻烦。