解读正在酝酿中的税法改革

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changheruhailiu
楼主 (北美华人网)
不知道有人发过这个没有,转贴一个做金融的人看了议案以后总结的税法改革 https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/pxbf77/breakdown_of_the_potential_ramifications_from_the/
Proposed income tax changes: The plan currently incorporates raising the top tax bracket to 39.6% from 37%, but that is not the only concerning portion of this change. For the first time in a very long time, there will be a "marriage penalty" on this tax bracket. What do I mean by that? Well, individuals earning $400k/yr annually will fall into this tax bracket, and in the past the married number would be close to double that much; however, under the new bill, a married household would only need to make $500k annually to get hit with this bracket, thus heavily penalizing married upper middle class families who earn $250k per spouse. Those individuals, if unmarried, would not be subject to this bracket, but because they are married, they will be penalized for having a spouse that is a high income earner. For those thinking about filing separately, the same $250k threshold still applies individually per person. If you have one disparately large earner, and one who falls under the threshold, you might still gain something, but whether it would be enough to offset the increase on the breadwinner would be debatable at this point. These same changes will also be implemented for small business LLCs, 1099 contractors, and all manner of W2 employees. This will probably impact FI timelines. Long Term Capital Gains on Dividends: The proposed plan would increase LTCG tax on dividends to 25% from 20%. What this means essentially is that anyone planning on utilizing dividends as part of a retirement income strategy will need to accumulate enough money to take into consideration the additional 5% of lost income from taxable accounts. For many, this will likely set back your FI timeline. Caps on business deductions: The proposed plan includes caps on the deductions businesses can claim from losses to only zero the income the business earned. So, even if your business made $250k in 2021, but lost $350k, you can no longer write off the entirety of your losses for the taxable year. You may carry the losses forward to the next year. Essentially this change prevents people from using passthrough entities to offset earned income from other sources than the business that accumulated the losses. Roth/Traditional IRA Changes: The proposed plan looks to implement a cap of $10 mil max that you can hold across all Roth accounts you own. Furthermore, anyone holding more than $10 mil in Roth accounts must liquidate 50% of the overage per year from the account until the total accumulated value is below $10 mil. Additionally, Roth conversions will no longer be allowed for single individuals earning $400k annually, or married households earning $450k annually. Again, here we see a marriage penalty, where 2 individuals earning $225k/ea would be comfortably below the threshold required to be able to do Roth Conversions; however, because they are married, they are now penalized and this is closed off. Married filing separately has same provisions as above with individuals capped at $225k each to be able to convert to Roth. Estates, Trusts, and Ultra High Income: There will be now be an additional 3% surcharge (on top of the existing 3.8%) for any estate or trust totaling $5 mil or more, or income earners who earn more than $5 mil in one fiscal year. This reduces the previous threshold of $11,700,000 to $5,000,000. There is a provision that allows for special exemption for qualified real estate designated as a farm business. Grantor Trusts will now be pulled into an individual's taxable estate and taxed in the included assets if the deceased individual was the owner of the trusts, so you can no longer use Grantor Trusts to pass assets and dodge inheritance/estate taxes. Transfer of Non-Business Assets (NBAs): The proposed changes here would place limitations on using NBAs to trade for equity stakes in other businesses, and will now be taxed as if the individual trading the NBAs for equity were transacting money for the equity stake. There is a provision within this plan that allows a look back period for audits by the IRS. Total Retirement Asset Caps: The proposed plan imposes a limitation on the total number of retirement assets you can own across all Roth/Traditional IRA accounts, and Employer sponsored plans. This limitation is $20 mil total; if the total amount in the accounts exceeds this number, you must withdrawal 100% of the overage from your Roth accounts whether the balance otherwise meets the requirements for the cap of $10 mil or not. Private Placement in Roth: The proposed plan includes a provision that requires that no new private placement investments may be made within a Roth account, and any existing private placements held by Roth accounts must exit the investment within 2 years, regardless of contractual penalties of the agreement. What this is saying is that essentially, even if you are contractually obligated to hold the private placement for 5 years, you must exit within 2, any contractual penalties associated with exiting the investment are the burden of the individual. Accredited Investments in IRA accounts: The proposed plan includes language that revokes IRA status of any IRA account (Roth or Traditional), that holds assets limited to accredited investors. All taxes will be due, in summary, on any applicable income or growth associated with these accounts at the time of revocation. Controlling Interest Investments in IRA accounts: The proposed plan includes changes to the current rule that you may not invest IRA assets into any entity in which you own 50% stake or greater. The limitation is now 10%, and you cannot be an Executive, Officer, Trustee, or member of a Board of Directors for the entity in question. The transition period on this is also 2 years to exit the securities held in the IRA. Reporting of ALL transactions over $600: This proposal includes changes that would change transaction reporting requirements from any cash transaction of $10,000 or more, to any transaction of any kind over $600. Qualified Conservation Passthrough donations: This proposal includes changes to current conservation easement passthrough contributions to limit the charitable contribution possibilities for partnerships. Essentially, this prevents a partnership from donating a significant portion of the land assets their organization controls to conservation as a charitable contribution to offset profits from the business. If you have further questions, I can elaborate more, though this will typically be a very niche change that will have huge implications for those it impacts, but will generally impact very few people. Repeal of requirement for IRA penalties to be approved by management: This means if you call the IRS regarding a tax issue, the individual you are speaking with may now add penalties to your ledger with the IRS without requiring approval from leadership. Changes to Foreign Securities: This proposal would treat all securities owned by American Citizens in foreign markets as if they were domestically owned for purposes of taxation. This basically means foreign investment will be double taxed, by the entity where the securities are held, and by the US. Anyone investing overseas in foreign markets should watch this very closely. FMLA Changes: The proposed bill will eliminate FMLA reimbursement to businesses in 2023 instead of 2025. This will likely eliminate the benefit completely. Provision to remove Caps on taxes on Spirits: The proposed law includes removing the current caps on taxable amounts of imported spirits from Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands. This will effectively increase the cost of liquor imported from these locations, as more tax will be paid. Changes to REITs: Under the proposed law, partnerships, estates, trusts, and corporations who own a portion of a REIT acquired by section 318(a)(3) downward attribution rule may not use section 318(a)(3) downward attribution rule to again pass the ownership to an individual. What all of that means is basically, if you owned a stake in a REIT, and legally passed that ownership to one of those entities, that entity could not pass that ownership along to someone else. However, if one of those entities were to simply buy a stake in a REIT, they could then legally pass that ownership to someone else using the aforementioned provision. There are also included changes to corporate taxes, and other things that will inherently be passed to consumers through prices increases to offset the additional tax burdens on companies.
c
changheruhailiu
c
changheruhailiu
感觉这个议案还是试图控制少数富人利用IRA执法的空子搞出巨大的退休金,同时对“富人”加税。
这里的富人不是指那些巨富,而是双马工,小业主,医生律师什么的
c
changheruhailiu
如果通过了的话,这个法案有点精准打击班上的贫困线上下的W2精英
c
changheruhailiu
这条的意思是单人40万/夫妻45万的就不能搞mega backdoor Roth 或者普通的backdoor了吧
Roth conversions will no longer be allowed for single individuals earning $400k annually, or married households earning $450k annually. Again, here we see a marriage penalty, where 2 individuals earning $225k/ea would be comfortably below the threshold required to be able to do Roth Conversions; however, because they are married, they are now penalized and this is closed off. Married filing separately has same provisions as above with individuals capped at $225k each to be able to convert to Roth.
c
changheruhailiu
回复 5楼changheruhailiu的帖子
看了原文,看来是不论收入水平彻底取消mega backdoor Roth。对高收入家庭/个人,取消backdoor Roth conversion
Page 11:
Under current law, contributions to Roth IRAs have income limitations. For example, the income range for single taxpayers for making contributions to Roth IRAs for 2021 is $125,000 to $140,000. Those single taxpayers with income above $140,000 generally are not permitted to make Roth IRA contributions. However, in 2010, the similar income limitations for Roth IRA conversions were repealed, which allowed anyone to contribute to a Roth IRA through a conversion. irrespective of the stillin-force income limitations for Roth IRA contributions. As an example, if a person exceeds the income limitation for contributions to a Roth IRA, he or she can make a nondeductible contribution to a traditional IRA – and then shortly thereafter convert the nondeductible contribution from the traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. In order to close these so-called “back-door” Roth IRA strategies, the bill eliminates Roth conversions for both IRAs and employer-sponsored plans for single taxpayers (or taxpayers married filing separately) with taxable income over $400,000, married taxpayers filing jointly with taxable income over $450,000, and heads of households with taxable income over $425,000 (all indexed for inflation). This provision applies to distributions, transfers, and contributions made in taxable years beginning after December 31, 2031. Furthermore, this section prohibits all employee after-tax contributions in qualified plans and prohibits after-tax IRA contributions from being converted to Roth regardless of income level, effective for distributions, transfers, and contributions made after December 31, 2021.
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niuheliang
现在讨论为时尚早。民主党自己都过不了。说是总额太大,其实就是很多加税争议大。这些加税其实就是用来讨价还价的。
l
lnghng
感觉也有些是打击富人的, 比如要控制Roth IRA在10m, 超过就要强制取出来.
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pqrs
关注
不娶何撩
精准打击upper middle class

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robindog
好处是没有动 Step Up tax; 还有很多的地方给了反应时间, 比如遗产税免税额度减半, 给出了明年1月1号开始实行。。。
不过对加州的房地产 一定是个坏消息, 试想一下今天如果房子是4-5M级别的, 到了20年后, 这个房子的价值可能会增加到 16M-20M, 光这个房子就占去了所有的免税额度了。。。 虽然可以用step up转给给小孩,有没有考虑过 小孩子拿不拿的住, 拿不住要马上卖的话 也行,他也会马上涉及的遗产税免税问题。。。
所以可以看到有相当一部分 贵房子区 的房子: 很多老人开始放房子出来卖了, 还有很多贵的房子被商业公司, 比如 建商, 或者 信托来持有(避开了遗产税问题。。。,还有他们不受 SALT cap 的影响,因为可以计入商业成本)。。。如果真心喜欢好地方的房产,那就建好信托, 让信托有一定的流水后慢慢来购买持有房子。。。
我个人一直有点不能理解是 个人今年利用高杠杆来购买4-5M的房地产,虽然抗通胀是个考虑,如果长期资本利得税增加, 加上加州的州税, 长期税务上面非常不划算。。。 但是我很主张购买1-1.5M 靠近旅游区的房子,如果小学还行的话。。。以后来养老。。。
不过很可能是我的财力限制了我的眼界。。。就像我去担心别人今晚喝一碗粥,还是两碗,(其实人家吃的是牛排。。。)
不过多说几句, 我个人看法 很简单 , 对于高资产高收入的家庭 1)一定要早做准备, 因为复利的翻滚是非常厉害的。。。 2)要尽早 把高增值资产和自己隔离开来,让它自己增长就好 , 比如信托 3)可以的话, 跟着巨富走, 因为他们比我们更敏感, 更早接触到内幕消息, 比如Elon 就清空了他在加州所有的高价房产,去无税州了。。。(简单的逻辑: 美国有两个群体政府是不敢动的: 巨富 和赤贫; 所以信托,慈善基金之类的一定安全, 就如这次在进行中的税改, 有涉及到信托, 但是小动。。。)










r
robindog
回复 10楼不娶何撩的帖子
说的太对了。。。
OLD $早就在信托或者慈善基金里面了, 虽有设计但是无关痛痒。。。
n
niuheliang
好处是没有动 Step Up tax; 还有很多的地方给了反应时间, 比如遗产税免税额度减半, 给出了明年1月1号开始实行。。。
不过对加州的房地产 一定是个坏消息, 试想一下今天如果房子是4-5M级别的, 到了20年后, 这个房子的价值可能会增加到 16M-20M, 光这个房子就占去了所有的免税额度了。。。 虽然可以用step up转给给小孩,有没有考虑过 小孩子拿不拿的住, 拿不住要马上卖的话 也行,他也会马上涉及的遗产税免税问题。。。
所以可以看到有相当一部分 贵房子区 的房子: 很多老人开始放房子出来卖了, 还有很多贵的房子被商业公司, 比如 建商, 或者 信托来持有(避开了遗产税问题。。。,还有他们不受 SALT cap 的影响,因为可以计入商业成本)。。。如果真心喜欢好地方的房产,那就建好信托, 让信托有一定的流水后慢慢来购买持有房子。。。
我个人一直有点不能理解是 个人今年利用高杠杆来购买4-5M的房地产,虽然抗通胀是个考虑,如果长期资本利得税增加, 加上加州的州税, 长期税务上面非常不划算。。。 但是我很主张购买1-1.5M 靠近旅游区的房子,如果小学还行的话。。。以后来养老。。。
不过很可能是我的财力限制了我的眼界。。。就像我去担心别人今晚喝一碗粥,还是两碗,(其实人家吃的是牛排。。。)
不过多说几句, 我个人看法 很简单 , 对于高资产高收入的家庭 1)一定要早做准备, 因为复利的翻滚是非常厉害的。。。 2)要尽早 把高增值资产和自己隔离开来,让它自己增长就好 , 比如信托 3)可以的话, 跟着巨富走, 因为他们比我们更敏感, 更早接触到内幕消息, 比如Elon 就清空了他在加州所有的高价房产,去无税州了。。。(简单的逻辑: 美国有两个群体政府是不敢动的: 巨富 和赤贫; 所以信托,慈善基金之类的一定安全, 就如这次在进行中的税改, 有涉及到信托, 但是小动。。。)











robindog 发表于 2021-10-04 00:49

财富自由之后,也就是你发现花不完你的钱,那么钱和投资的意义就不同了,人的想法会变。因为你花不完,其实你是在为别人去投资。如果你的子孙甚至不需要你的钱,那么你就是为社会为人类去投资,用你的钱去投票,促进人类技术文化生活的进步。当然,反正也花不完,多交少交几个税其实意义并不大,多增长几个点几十个点甚至差几倍的意义都不特别地大。
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robindog
回复 13楼niuheliang的帖子
是的, 我觉得你说的很有道理, 相信资产到了一定的程度, 看待钱的角度 变了, 所以有些行为 不在那个level 的人, 用普通的逻辑 来思考 (比如我自己。。。), 就觉得不合逻辑。。。

f
fitfitfit
好处是没有动 Step Up tax; 还有很多的地方给了反应时间, 比如遗产税免税额度减半, 给出了明年1月1号开始实行。。。
不过对加州的房地产 一定是个坏消息, 试想一下今天如果房子是4-5M级别的, 到了20年后, 这个房子的价值可能会增加到 16M-20M, 光这个房子就占去了所有的免税额度了。。。 虽然可以用step up转给给小孩,有没有考虑过 小孩子拿不拿的住, 拿不住要马上卖的话 也行,他也会马上涉及的遗产税免税问题。。。
所以可以看到有相当一部分 贵房子区 的房子: 很多老人开始放房子出来卖了, 还有很多贵的房子被商业公司, 比如 建商, 或者 信托来持有(避开了遗产税问题。。。,还有他们不受 SALT cap 的影响,因为可以计入商业成本)。。。如果真心喜欢好地方的房产,那就建好信托, 让信托有一定的流水后慢慢来购买持有房子。。。
我个人一直有点不能理解是 个人今年利用高杠杆来购买4-5M的房地产,虽然抗通胀是个考虑,如果长期资本利得税增加, 加上加州的州税, 长期税务上面非常不划算。。。 但是我很主张购买1-1.5M 靠近旅游区的房子,如果小学还行的话。。。以后来养老。。。
不过很可能是我的财力限制了我的眼界。。。就像我去担心别人今晚喝一碗粥,还是两碗,(其实人家吃的是牛排。。。)
不过多说几句, 我个人看法 很简单 , 对于高资产高收入的家庭 1)一定要早做准备, 因为复利的翻滚是非常厉害的。。。 2)要尽早 把高增值资产和自己隔离开来,让它自己增长就好 , 比如信托 3)可以的话, 跟着巨富走, 因为他们比我们更敏感, 更早接触到内幕消息, 比如Elon 就清空了他在加州所有的高价房产,去无税州了。。。(简单的逻辑: 美国有两个群体政府是不敢动的: 巨富 和赤贫; 所以信托,慈善基金之类的一定安全, 就如这次在进行中的税改, 有涉及到信托, 但是小动。。。)











robindog 发表于 2021-10-04 00:49

4-5M涨到16M基本不可能,甚至搞不好20年后没比今天贵多少
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niuheliang
4-5M涨到16M基本不可能,甚至搞不好20年后没比今天贵多少

fitfitfit 发表于 2021-10-04 01:44

40年后问题不大。现在40岁有4M房子的大概率活过80岁。
不用为有钱人操心。房子要亏了肯定有其它地方赚回来。
C
Cinderella_smile
thanks for sharing
c
changheruhailiu
精准打击upper middle class


不娶何撩 发表于 2021-10-04 00:37

Reddit的评论区里大比例对此表示理解支持,看来这个法案通过有相当的民意基础啊
大部分人认为今天收入50万以上/单身40万以上的不是upper middle class,而是Tax the Rich里面的Rich。就算不是巨富也是小富吧
看来双马以后还是不结婚的最好,结了的赶紧离吧,社会结构又有新发展啦 结婚的,50万以上就高税率 不结婚,没有孩子的80万(各40万)/有孩子的85/90万
而且这个不仅影响税率,也影响还能不能存退休金等等
双马家庭应该马上把技术性离婚提到日程上来啊
不娶何撩
Reddit的评论区里大比例对此表示理解支持,看来这个法案通过有相当的民意基础啊
大部分人认为今天收入50万以上/单身40万以上的不是upper middle class,而是Tax the Rich里面的Rich。就算不是巨富也是小富吧
看来双马以后还是不结婚的最好,结了的赶紧离吧,社会结构又有新发展啦 结婚的,50万以上就高税率 不结婚,没有孩子的80万(各40万)/有孩子的85/90万
而且这个不仅影响税率,也影响还能不能存退休金等等
双马家庭应该马上把技术性离婚提到日程上来啊

changheruhailiu 发表于 2021-10-04 07:24

就是biden 发钱太多了。
upperclass钱收不来,只能找middle class 里面有钱的
c
changheruhailiu
就是biden 发钱太多了。
upperclass钱收不来,只能找middle class 里面有钱的

不娶何撩 发表于 2021-10-04 07:27

同意是发钱太多了
现在经济面临的危险是不是滞涨stagflation啊?对后面的投资有什么指导意义吗
收入低不想工作,反正政府会发钱-》用人成本上升-》结构性通胀 FED不敢提高利率-》大家都愿意借钱买资产
现在supply chain的问题到底是什么导致的?我看到说是因为码头工会和大卡车司机不上班?
c
cydblu
关注➕哎……
n
niuheliang
Reddit的评论区里大比例对此表示理解支持,看来这个法案通过有相当的民意基础啊
大部分人认为今天收入50万以上/单身40万以上的不是upper middle class,而是Tax the Rich里面的Rich。就算不是巨富也是小富吧
看来双马以后还是不结婚的最好,结了的赶紧离吧,社会结构又有新发展啦 结婚的,50万以上就高税率 不结婚,没有孩子的80万(各40万)/有孩子的85/90万
而且这个不仅影响税率,也影响还能不能存退休金等等
双马家庭应该马上把技术性离婚提到日程上来啊

changheruhailiu 发表于 2021-10-04 07:24

根据维基百科引述的学者著作:2004年时候Super Rich是Top 0.9%。2020年,根据谷歌,Top 1%家庭收入是$539k。
s
skyfi
根据维基百科引述的学者著作:2004年时候Super Rich是Top 0.9%。2020年,根据谷歌,Top 1%家庭收入是$539k。
niuheliang 发表于 2021-10-04 20:41

收入50多万是top 1%, 但看net worth top 1% 要11M, 我觉得定贫富看成分,应该看net worth而不是收入。
https://dqydj.com/top-one-percent-united-states/
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changheruhailiu
收入50多万是top 1%, 但看net worth top 1% 要11M, 我觉得定贫富看成分,应该看net worth而不是收入。
https://dqydj.com/top-one-percent-united-states/
skyfi 发表于 2021-10-04 21:18

对大多数普通选民来说他们一辈子也不可能达到这个收入,所以他们都会支持对“富人”加税的。
如果要真的对富人征税,那应该征的不是收入税而是财产税,或者至少是高遗产税。
C
CleverBeaver
就是biden 发钱太多了。
upperclass钱收不来,只能找middle class 里面有钱的

不娶何撩 发表于 2021-10-04 07:27

可是照样有人说 钱不得不发
b
b4i4inluv
税不到wealth, 只能税income. 挣w2的是最惨的。 还有这个marriage penalty是啥意思,鼓励女人回家蹲着么。
焱焱
mega backdoor Roth不管什么收入都堵住,不过好像会十几年后才执行?
n
niuheliang
回复 26楼b4i4inluv的帖子
或者男人回家呆着
c
changheruhailiu
税不到wealth, 只能税income. 挣w2的是最惨的。 还有这个marriage penalty是啥意思,鼓励女人回家蹲着么。
b4i4inluv 发表于 2021-10-04 21:43

不是啊,可以同居生娃,就是不结婚啊。
c
changheruhailiu
mega backdoor Roth不管什么收入都堵住,不过好像会十几年后才执行?
焱焱 发表于 2021-10-04 21:46

提案是从2021年12月31日起生效执行。
c
changheruhailiu
mega backdoor Roth不管什么收入都堵住,不过好像会十几年后才执行?
焱焱 发表于 2021-10-04 21:46

众议院草案原文:https://waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/files/documents/SubtitleISxS.pdf 第11页
Furthermore, this section prohibits all employee after-tax contributions in qualified plans and prohibits after-tax IRA contributions from being converted to Roth regardless of income level, effective for distributions, transfers, and contributions made after December 31, 2021.
k
kikidelivery
mega backdoor Roth这个到底定下来没有? 什么时候才能有个准信。
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Temporarilycalm
Caps on business deductions 这条可太赞同了
I
Iced_Mocha
如果通过了的话,这个法案有点精准打击班上的贫困线上下的W2精英
changheruhailiu 发表于 2021-10-03 23:27

只有离婚了
爱吃烤鱼片
"In order to close these so-called “back-door” Roth IRA strategies, the bill eliminates Rothconversions for both IRAs and employer-sponsored plans for single taxpayers (or taxpayers married filing separately) with taxable income over $400,000, married taxpayers filing jointly with taxable income over $450,000, and heads of households with taxable income over $425,000 (all indexed for inflation). This provision applies to distributions, transfers, and contributions made in taxable years beginning after December 31, 2031. Furthermore, this section prohibits all employee after-tax contributions in qualified plans and prohibits after-tax IRA contributions from being converted to Roth regardless of income level, effective for distributions, transfers, and contributions made after December 31, 2021."
这两段看了好几遍,仍然不明白,到底是彻底取消,还是针对高收入2031年后取消。
c
changheruhailiu
"In order to close these so-called “back-door” Roth IRA strategies, the bill eliminates Rothconversions for both IRAs and employer-sponsored plans for single taxpayers (or taxpayers married filing separately) with taxable income over $400,000, married taxpayers filing jointly with taxable income over $450,000, and heads of households with taxable income over $425,000 (all indexed for inflation). This provision applies to distributions, transfers, and contributions made in taxable years beginning after December 31, 2031. Furthermore, this section prohibits all employee after-tax contributions in qualified plans and prohibits after-tax IRA contributions from being converted to Roth regardless of income level, effective for distributions, transfers, and contributions made after December 31, 2021."
这两段看了好几遍,仍然不明白,到底是彻底取消,还是针对高收入2031年后取消。
爱吃烤鱼片 发表于 2021-10-05 09:08

PDF 里面有分段,读起来比较容易理解一些。我的理解是这样的:
1。 ROTH IRA本来的设计是给中低收入的人便利,2010年的改革引起了一个漏洞,导致本来收入超标不能投ROTH的也可以做backdoor Roth conversion。但是这个漏洞不是很大,一年只能投6000; 2。MEGA Backdoor Roth就不同,这个漏洞很大(58000到64500); 但是这个必须由employer提供After Tax 401K才行。有很多公司不提供After tax 401K; 3。Roth 401K 和 After Tax 401K的主要区别是:限额不同,而且收益是否交税不同 4。还有一种情况是(比如提前退休的)把401K,IRA里的钱交税以后变成Roth IRA,目前税法对这种IRA ROTH conversion没有限额,因为交税要按ordinary income,按最高的marginal tax rate交税
这个法案最后一段是说从2022年起不准再投After tax 401K,同时已经在After tax 401K的钱也不能转成ROTH。 具体来说: 1。2022年开始1,2都被禁止了 2。从2032年起,高收入个人/家庭也不准搞第4个了
c
changheruhailiu
回复 36楼changheruhailiu的帖子
禁止Roth Conversion的可能不太好理解,我也在想到底怎么回事,想来想去可能是这样的:
假设某家人401K/IRA里有1000万,现在60岁。如果他们不动这笔钱,按平均收益率6%计算,72岁的时候,这笔钱就变成2000万。按IRS的RMD规定,第一年RMD就是82万,高的时候会到150万。
现在他们可以退休,每年从PRETAX账户里转一部分钱去ROTH,根据新法律,如果他们转钱的金额超过50万就根本不能转进ROTH,只能用掉了。就算他们每年转48万,12年以后他们PRETAX还有1千多万,RMD还会很高。
这里专门留个10年的空档就是让现在401K里余额高的人赶快把钱弄出去或者不要再继续投钱了
爱吃烤鱼片
PDF 里面有分段,读起来比较容易理解一些。我的理解是这样的:
1。 ROTH IRA本来的设计是给中低收入的人便利,2010年的改革引起了一个漏洞,导致本来收入超标不能投ROTH的也可以做backdoor Roth conversion。但是这个漏洞不是很大,一年只能投6000; 2。MEGA Backdoor Roth就不同,这个漏洞很大(58000到64500); 但是这个必须由employer提供After Tax 401K才行。有很多公司不提供After tax 401K; 3。Roth 401K 和 After Tax 401K的主要区别是:限额不同,而且收益是否交税不同 4。还有一种情况是(比如提前退休的)把401K,IRA里的钱交税以后变成Roth IRA,目前税法对这种IRA ROTH conversion没有限额,因为交税要按ordinary income,按最高的marginal tax rate交税
这个法案最后一段是说从2022年起不准再投After tax 401K,同时已经在After tax 401K的钱也不能转成ROTH。 具体来说: 1。2022年开始1,2都被禁止了 2。从2032年起,高收入个人/家庭也不准搞第4个了
changheruhailiu 发表于 2021-10-05 13:26

谢谢mm的分析。多读了几遍,再结合你的分析,我觉得第一段讲的是backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA在2022年以后,针对高收入禁止了,但高收入线以下的还是可以,直到第二段说的2031年
第二段讲的是2031年之后所有的roth conversion都不行了,包括backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA,以及退休之后把pre tax 401k取出来交税后放在roth IRA里。
如果这个理解是正确的话,如果通过,对现在和未来的退休规划影响很大啊
s
skyfi
谢谢mm的分析。多读了几遍,再结合你的分析,我觉得第一段讲的是backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA在2022年以后,针对高收入禁止了,但高收入线以下的还是可以,直到第二段说的2031年
第二段讲的是2031年之后所有的roth conversion都不行了,包括backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA,以及退休之后把pre tax 401k取出来交税后放在roth IRA里。
如果这个理解是正确的话,如果通过,对现在和未来的退休规划影响很大啊
爱吃烤鱼片 发表于 2021-10-05 15:09

谢谢两位mm 不好意思做个伸手党 高收入这里的定义是啥?
爱吃烤鱼片
谢谢两位mm 不好意思做个伸手党 高收入这里的定义是啥?
skyfi 发表于 2021-10-05 15:13

就是这个啊
single taxpayers (or taxpayers married filing separately) with taxable income over $400,000, married taxpayers filing jointly with taxable income over $450,000, and heads of households with taxable income over $425,000 (all indexed for inflation)
c
changheruhailiu
谢谢mm的分析。多读了几遍,再结合你的分析,我觉得第一段讲的是backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA在2022年以后,针对高收入禁止了,但高收入线以下的还是可以,直到第二段说的2031年
第二段讲的是2031年之后所有的roth conversion都不行了,包括backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA,以及退休之后把pre tax 401k取出来交税后放在roth IRA里。
如果这个理解是正确的话,如果通过,对现在和未来的退休规划影响很大啊
爱吃烤鱼片 发表于 2021-10-05 15:09

确实很大啊。另外有人可能会问,401K里怎么会有1000万,这里有个表,假设一个人22岁开始工作,每年投满401K,平均年增长8%, 即使不考虑employer matching,60岁的401K余额应该是4百40万。很多人是小业主的话会投满5万8一年,增长很快的。
所以夫妻双方都401K投满大盘,60岁的时候401K里有1千万不是不可能的。

e
enhesaepc
22岁开始在美国工作,这里很多人当时都在读书吧。
c
changheruhailiu
22岁开始在美国工作,这里很多人当时都在读书吧。
enhesaepc 发表于 2021-10-05 16:28

这个税法改革还是面对大多数普通美国人的。当然大多数人401K里确实没有多少钱,富人毕竟是少数。
但是从理论上来说,401K账户本身是可以达到很高余额的。新闻报道说有好3百多个富人IRA account余额超过2千5百万。
这个文章就是教你如何把IRA账户滚到上亿大礼包的 https://www.investopedia.com/managing-wealth/grow-ira-100-million-plus/
On average, twentysomethings have socked away $13,000 in IRAs, while those in their early 60s who are approaching retirement have balances closer to $165,000. But while the overall IRA account balance averages $120,000, according to the Government Accountability Office (GAO), more than 300 IRAs boast balances greater than $25 million
s
skyfi
这个税法改革还是面对大多数普通美国人的。当然大多数人401K里确实没有多少钱,富人毕竟是少数。
但是从理论上来说,401K账户本身是可以达到很高余额的。新闻报道说有好3百多个富人IRA account余额超过2千5百万。
这个文章就是教你如何把IRA账户滚到上亿大礼包的 https://www.investopedia.com/managing-wealth/grow-ira-100-million-plus/
On average, twentysomethings have socked away $13,000 in IRAs, while those in their early 60s who are approaching retirement have balances closer to $165,000. But while the overall IRA account balance averages $120,000, according to the Government Accountability Office (GAO), more than 300 IRAs boast balances greater than $25 million
changheruhailiu 发表于 2021-10-05 17:23

我觉得这在某种程度上是“赌国运” 美国股市尤其是大盘过去几十年, 尤其是过去30年的表现,造就了如此“无与伦比”的完美复利。 别的国家我不了解,美国的401k,roth,mega各种设置,给“有心人”(褒义)提供了很多工具。
我们会不会那么幸运,未来20-30年能延续这个“完美复利”,我不知道。我比较中立,我觉得退休财务计划应该也考虑别的可能性。其实,除非现在账户里已经好多钱了或者年龄>50,普通人能做的就是在不影响生活的前提下,放满一切能放满的,不要乱操作,到50-55岁根据账户情况,家庭资产等做一些planning。
c
changheruhailiu
谢谢mm的分析。多读了几遍,再结合你的分析,我觉得第一段讲的是backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA在2022年以后,针对高收入禁止了,但高收入线以下的还是可以,直到第二段说的2031年
第二段讲的是2031年之后所有的roth conversion都不行了,包括backdoor IRA和mega backdoor IRA,以及退休之后把pre tax 401k取出来交税后放在roth IRA里。
如果这个理解是正确的话,如果通过,对现在和未来的退休规划影响很大啊
爱吃烤鱼片 发表于 2021-10-05 15:09

我可能是没说清楚,试着换个方式:
1。最后一段的意思是明年开始所有的backdoor漏洞统统关闭。即使收入达不到40万,只有20万,也不能再做backdoor Roth conversion, 不论是通过after tax 401K走(mega backdoor Roth conversion,理论上一年能投39500)还是普通的backdoor(一年6000,50岁以上7000); 2。10年以后,高收入的个人或家庭将如果收入超标,不允许做普通的要交税的那种Roth conversion 3。今后10年,高收入家庭也还可以做交税的Roth conversion
这里的收入不仅仅是工资,也包括炒股炒房的收入,比如longterm capital gain。
这个提案里面还有其他条款,比如如果收入过高而且退休金账户余额过高,都不允许再继续向退休账户投资。这样一来政府就可以收收更多的税了,比如收入过线以后,连股票分红的税率都要上涨5%的税率。