看到报道了吗，密西根女子移植新冠患者的肺后死亡了

移植手术三日后该女子出现高热、呼吸不畅等症状，再次检测后确认其感染新冠，还把参与手术的一位医生也感染了。。

医生好无辜

回复 2楼vivian.的帖子
这女子也是可怜

之前不知道捐献的肺是被感染了的？还是捐献者感染过但是恢复了，其他原因去世了？

新冠不是对肺部影响最大？这样的肺也敢用？应该是没有别的办法了……

回复 1楼gzrk的帖子
加点细节吧，术前都测了covid 阴性， nasal swab.事情发生后再测 donor's original lung washings, 发现是阳性。有没有可能操作的时候感染了污染了？

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/02/23/michigan-lung-transplant-recipient-dies-from-covid-19-spread-by-donor-lungs/
The donor was a woman who suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident. She had no history of COVID-19 or any symptoms like fever, cough, or headache and prior to organ procurement, she had a nasal swab that was negative for the COVID-19 virus. The woman who received the donated lungs had end stage Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and was also negative for the COVID-19 virus. Three days after her lung transplant, she developed fevers and worsening lung function. A CAT scan of her new lungs looked like COVID. Even though the donor’s nasal swab had been negative for COVID, they were found to be positive when they went back and tested her original lung washings. During the initial procedure, doctors believed both the donor and recipient were free of COVID and therefore weren’t required to wear an N-95 mask or eye protection.

个人觉得手术医生携带病毒可能性更大

回复 1楼gzrk的帖子
加点细节吧，术前都测了covid 阴性， nasal swab.事情发生后再测 donor's original lung washings, 发现是阳性。有没有可能操作的时候感染了污染了？

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/02/23/michigan-lung-transplant-recipient-dies-from-covid-19-spread-by-donor-lungs/
The donor was a woman who suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident. She had no history of COVID-19 or any symptoms like fever, cough, or headache and prior to organ procurement, she had a nasal swab that was negative for the COVID-19 virus. The woman who received the donated lungs had end stage Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and was also negative for the COVID-19 virus. Three days after her lung transplant, she developed fevers and worsening lung function. A CAT scan of her new lungs looked like COVID. Even though the donor’s nasal swab had been negative for COVID, they were found to be positive when they went back and tested her original lung washings. During the initial procedure, doctors believed both the donor and recipient were free of COVID and therefore weren’t required to wear an N-95 mask or eye protection.
vinca 发表于 2021-02-23 09:32

谢谢补充

回复 7楼sweetapple123的帖子
我也这样想，医生感染没测出来，感染了病人。

回复 1楼gzrk的帖子
加点细节吧，术前都测了covid 阴性， nasal swab.事情发生后再测 donor's original lung washings, 发现是阳性。有没有可能操作的时候感染了污染了？

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/02/23/michigan-lung-transplant-recipient-dies-from-covid-19-spread-by-donor-lungs/
The donor was a woman who suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident. She had no history of COVID-19 or any symptoms like fever, cough, or headache and prior to organ procurement, she had a nasal swab that was negative for the COVID-19 virus. The woman who received the donated lungs had end stage Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and was also negative for the COVID-19 virus. Three days after her lung transplant, she developed fevers and worsening lung function. A CAT scan of her new lungs looked like COVID. Even though the donor’s nasal swab had been negative for COVID, they were found to be positive when they went back and tested her original lung washings. During the initial procedure, doctors believed both the donor and recipient were free of COVID and therefore weren’t required to wear an N-95 mask or eye protection.
vinca 发表于 2021-02-23 09:32

文章好像写得很清楚吧-不是手术时感染的。是donor lung 原先的有的。肺里已经感染了，虽然nasal swab 阴性。

竟然没检测出来

捐献的器官不用检查吗，只检查人。那要的捐的还不如自己的健康呢……

文章好像写得很清楚吧-不是手术时感染的。是donor lung 原先的有的。肺里已经感染了，虽然nasal swab 阴性。
cloverain 发表于 2021-02-23 09:43

正解。Donor 虽然 nasal swab 阴性，但 lung 是阳性。

现在去医院，做什么风险都很大，更何况是做手术

回复 1楼gzrk的帖子
加点细节吧，术前都测了covid 阴性， nasal swab.事情发生后再测 donor's original lung washings, 发现是阳性。有没有可能操作的时候感染了污染了？

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/02/23/michigan-lung-transplant-recipient-dies-from-covid-19-spread-by-donor-lungs/
The donor was a woman who suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident. She had no history of COVID-19 or any symptoms like fever, cough, or headache and prior to organ procurement, she had a nasal swab that was negative for the COVID-19 virus. The woman who received the donated lungs had end stage Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and was also negative for the COVID-19 virus. Three days after her lung transplant, she developed fevers and worsening lung function. A CAT scan of her new lungs looked like COVID. Even though the donor’s nasal swab had been negative for COVID, they were found to be positive when they went back and tested her original lung washings. During the initial procedure, doctors believed both the donor and recipient were free of COVID and therefore weren’t required to wear an N-95 mask or eye protection.
vinca 发表于 2021-02-23 09:32

donor”s original lung washings，这个是移植前做的话，那就是donor无症状感染了。懂lung transplant的jm看看这个lung washing是不是需要在transplant之前做？

术前拿到捐体肺都不检查的吗？

患者和医生都好无辜啊

文章好像写得很清楚吧-不是手术时感染的。是donor lung 原先的有的。肺里已经感染了，虽然nasal swab 阴性。
cloverain 发表于 2021-02-23 09:43

lung washing 这些操作的时候感染的。因为donor和receiver的术前检查都是阴性。像UK的医院里30%的新冠阳性是医院里感染的

肺移植的捐献者可能是出车祸这种突发的吧 可能当时是无症状感染者 另外会不会有可能是handle肺部的某一个工作人员是无症状感染者？ 理论上如果肺还“活”着，是可以被病毒感染的吧

患者和医生都好无辜啊
sillynut 发表于 2021-02-23 10:24

医生不无辜，虽然可伶

正解。Donor 虽然 nasal swab 阴性，但 lung 是阳性。
snsb 发表于 2021-02-23 09:58

什么正解 文章说得很清楚的是donor没有感染新冠

回复 1楼gzrk的帖子
加点细节吧，术前都测了covid 阴性， nasal swab.事情发生后再测 donor's original lung washings, 发现是阳性。有没有可能操作的时候感染了污染了？

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/02/23/michigan-lung-transplant-recipient-dies-from-covid-19-spread-by-donor-lungs/
The donor was a woman who suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident. She had no history of COVID-19 or any symptoms like fever, cough, or headache and prior to organ procurement, she had a nasal swab that was negative for the COVID-19 virus. The woman who received the donated lungs had end stage Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and was also negative for the COVID-19 virus. Three days after her lung transplant, she developed fevers and worsening lung function. A CAT scan of her new lungs looked like COVID. Even though the donor’s nasal swab had been negative for COVID, they were found to be positive when they went back and tested her original lung washings. During the initial procedure, doctors believed both the donor and recipient were free of COVID and therefore weren’t required to wear an N-95 mask or eye protection.
vinca 发表于 2021-02-23 09:32

"密西根女子移植新冠患者的肺后死亡了"
引用新闻真的不可以撷取片段误导他人 原PO陈述的跟实际上差太多了

lung washing 这些操作的时候感染的。因为donor和receiver的术前检查都是阴性。像UK的医院里30%的新冠阳性是医院里感染的
sbwlys 发表于 2021-02-23 10:26

很难说。也可能是开始检测的时候不准。也可能是病毒只存在lung里

美国感染的人数超过十分之一了。今后很多捐赠者都会是新冠康复者 。

器官移植活不了的太多了，也可能只是凑巧也阳性了

鼻拭子阴性，洗肺的水是阳性。 这种情况已经搞不清到底怎么回事，操作员、操作器皿…都有可能感染水，水里有病毒，肺也沾到，然后感染病人、手术参与人员…
有没有可能鼻拭子阴性，肺部阳性？应该再去检验捐献器官女士的血液。
很可能医院本身带毒情况严重，看起来医生护士觉得安全就不戴口罩。

回复 17楼sillynut的帖子
捐献者也很无辜啊。你这说法让人感觉有点不舒服，好像这件事里有什么恶人作恶似的。

鼻拭子阴性，洗肺的水是阳性。 这种情况已经搞不清到底怎么回事，操作员、操作器皿…都有可能感染水，水里有病毒，肺也沾到，然后感染病人、手术参与人员…
有没有可能鼻拭子阴性，肺部阳性？应该再去检验捐献器官女士的血液。
很可能医院本身带毒情况严重，看起来医生护士觉得安全就不戴口罩。
黄老歇 发表于 2021-02-23 12:40

鼻试子检测的准确率并不高，好像假阴性的机率接近40%。

鼻试子检测的准确率并不高，好像假阴性的机率接近40%。
春风过驴耳 发表于 2021-02-23 12:48

你说的是lateral flow test吧，这种药器官移植的，怎么可能用lateral flow， 肯定是PCR啊。 再说了，lateral flow的一般让人连续几天测，或者是隔天测，提高准确率，当然，测得是活人
这里怎么有些人怎么好像喜欢把事实拼命往负面那边扳呢，嘴一张睁眼说瞎话的也太多了

好多人可能没有医学常识。donor的肺部灌洗能大大提高肺移植的成功率，所以是在移植前进行的。所有操作都是严格无菌操作，器械，灌洗液，都是灭菌处理过，肯定戴口罩，只不过不是N95而已，什么操作台，水污染，绝对不可能发生。这个就是donor要么无症状，要么还没有出现症状，但是病毒已经进入肺部。灌洗好处是清除donor的免疫细胞减少排异反应，但是一个后果就是原有的免疫细胞被清除而受体的还没有进入，在有covid病毒的情况下滋生更加迅猛
这个covid病毒有时是很奇怪的，去年国内刚发生的时候我听说就是有人咽拭子怎么都测不出，最后是肺灌洗液查出来阳性。

好多人可能没有医学常识。donor的肺部灌洗能大大提高肺移植的成功率，所以是在移植前进行的。所有操作都是严格无菌操作，器械，灌洗液，都是灭菌处理过，肯定戴口罩，只不过不是N95而已，什么操作台，水污染，绝对不可能发生。这个就是donor要么无症状，要么还没有出现症状，但是病毒已经进入肺部。灌洗好处是清除donor的免疫细胞减少排异反应，但是一个后果就是原有的免疫细胞被清除而受体的还没有进入，在有covid病毒的情况下滋生更加迅猛
这个covid病毒有时是很奇怪的，去年国内刚发生的时候我听说就是有人咽拭子怎么都测不出，最后是肺灌洗液查出来阳性。
mariah 发表于 2021-02-23 12:56

谢谢详解

这个医生是打完疫苗感染的？

有病理报告给出死亡原因吗

奇怪，我们这儿做移植，供体病人都要做bronch 确保covid 阴性
Nasal swab 假阴性太多

好多人可能没有医学常识。donor的肺部灌洗能大大提高肺移植的成功率，所以是在移植前进行的。所有操作都是严格无菌操作，器械，灌洗液，都是灭菌处理过，肯定戴口罩，只不过不是N95而已，什么操作台，水污染，绝对不可能发生。这个就是donor要么无症状，要么还没有出现症状，但是病毒已经进入肺部。灌洗好处是清除donor的免疫细胞减少排异反应，但是一个后果就是原有的免疫细胞被清除而受体的还没有进入，在有covid病毒的情况下滋生更加迅猛
这个covid病毒有时是很奇怪的，去年国内刚发生的时候我听说就是有人咽拭子怎么都测不出，最后是肺灌洗液查出来阳性。
mariah 发表于 2021-02-23 12:56

Ok
这个貌似很合理

肺移植应该是比较难的移植，我认识的有找国内最好的肺移植医院做的，当天昏迷，然后就挂了。肺移植的肺源很充足，我认识的那个一个月就排到了。

你说的是lateral flow test吧，这种药器官移植的，怎么可能用lateral flow， 肯定是PCR啊。 再说了，lateral flow的一般让人连续几天测，或者是隔天测，提高准确率，当然，测得是活人
这里怎么有些人怎么好像喜欢把事实拼命往负面那边扳呢，嘴一张睁眼说瞎话的也太多了
sbwlys 发表于 2021-02-23 12:56

我说的就是PCR呀。这个网站说PCR假阴性是2%-30%之间。我在2020年十一月份查的时候这网页给出的假阴性率是2-37%。当初是我第一次检测新冠，特别关心准确率，那时还在网上跟朋友讨论了一下， 所以有一些纪录可以查阅。
你平白无故指责别人“嘴一张说瞎话”真让人不舒服。

回复 30楼mariah的帖子
好像这个解释最合理。不过这应当算医学专业知识，不是医学常识了吧。

好多人可能没有医学常识。donor的肺部灌洗能大大提高肺移植的成功率，所以是在移植前进行的。所有操作都是严格无菌操作，器械，灌洗液，都是灭菌处理过，肯定戴口罩，只不过不是N95而已，什么操作台，水污染，绝对不可能发生。这个就是donor要么无症状，要么还没有出现症状，但是病毒已经进入肺部。灌洗好处是清除donor的免疫细胞减少排异反应，但是一个后果就是原有的免疫细胞被清除而受体的还没有进入，在有covid病毒的情况下滋生更加迅猛
这个covid病毒有时是很奇怪的，去年国内刚发生的时候我听说就是有人咽拭子怎么都测不出，最后是肺灌洗液查出来阳性。
mariah 发表于 2021-02-23 12:56

好像这个解释最合理。不过这应当算医学专业知识，不是医学常识了吧。

捐献者有呼吸机吧，所以检测出来阴性不能说明血液里没有或者肺里没有吧。医生可能没想到需要血液检测吧，或者肺摘除后应该之间检测吧。现在检测15分钟出结果的那种不知道准确度多少啊。

这就是donor没检测出来，现在测试又不是百分百测出

回复 1楼gzrk的帖子
加点细节吧，术前都测了covid 阴性， nasal swab.事情发生后再测 donor's original lung washings, 发现是阳性。有没有可能操作的时候感染了污染了？

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/02/23/michigan-lung-transplant-recipient-dies-from-covid-19-spread-by-donor-lungs/
The donor was a woman who suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident. She had no history of COVID-19 or any symptoms like fever, cough, or headache and prior to organ procurement, she had a nasal swab that was negative for the COVID-19 virus. The woman who received the donated lungs had end stage Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and was also negative for the COVID-19 virus. Three days after her lung transplant, she developed fevers and worsening lung function. A CAT scan of her new lungs looked like COVID. Even though the donor’s nasal swab had been negative for COVID, they were found to be positive when they went back and tested her original lung washings. During the initial procedure, doctors believed both the donor and recipient were free of COVID and therefore weren’t required to wear an N-95 mask or eye protection.
vinca 发表于 2021-02-23 09:32

测试可能只做了一次，有个准确率的问题

这算不算医疗事故

医院一直很严格是最早universal masking 的医院之一，他们发了个文章讨论这个病例，建议以后不能光查鼻咽新冠，还要检查肺

可惜人没了

去看下medscape 的报导，是捐献者肺部感染了，外科医生四天后也感染，他们测序了确定是从捐献者肺部来的，最后是测了肺洗液才知道的。之前所有的核酸检测都是阴性

好多人可能没有医学常识。donor的肺部灌洗能大大提高肺移植的成功率，所以是在移植前进行的。所有操作都是严格无菌操作，器械，灌洗液，都是灭菌处理过，肯定戴口罩，只不过不是N95而已，什么操作台，水污染，绝对不可能发生。这个就是donor要么无症状，要么还没有出现症状，但是病毒已经进入肺部。灌洗好处是清除donor的免疫细胞减少排异反应，但是一个后果就是原有的免疫细胞被清除而受体的还没有进入，在有covid病毒的情况下滋生更加迅猛
这个covid病毒有时是很奇怪的，去年国内刚发生的时候我听说就是有人咽拭子怎么都测不出，最后是肺灌洗液查出来阳性。
mariah 发表于 2021-02-23 12:56

这算个鬼的医学“常识”，谁家没事移植器官跟感冒似的

同觉得医生是新冠阳性