I think you can sue the escrow, you don't have to sue the seller.
The issue is withholding tax, not paying taxes. When a foreigner sell house in US, US tax law requires the seller (and their agent/title company) to WITHHOLD tax. The the foreign seller has no duty to "withhold" their own tax, because the whole purpose of withholding tax is to take the money to IRS BEFORE the foreigner get paid and prevent the money from leaving US.
So it is seller's fault that you did not WITHHOLD the tax. As your agent, the escrow company has the duty to withhold the tax and send the money to IRS. Whatever the reason they said about send the money late is fine, say it to the judge.
So you can sue the escrow alone. Make it about withholding, not about actually paying taxes.
2. Oct. 2019, 我们收到第一封8288b rejection letter from IRS. Passed to escrow right away. Escrow told us nothing wrong.
3. Received bill statement of 15 万 from IRS (wrong pocket June 2019) in Nov 2019. Passed to escrow right away. Called IRS to understand the issue. Escrow told us nothing wrong.
4. Escrow sent IRS check on 01/16/2020 and IRS cashed it on 01/27/2020. Escrow told us nothing wrong.
5. Received bill statement of 19万 fromIRS（right pocket July 2019) in March 2020. Many phone calls to IRS/escrow to understand the issue.
6. Mailed IRS to correct wrong pocket issue in March 2020
7. Received the adjusted bill of 50k in Nov. 2020.
8. Many phones to futher correct interests/penalties from 50k+ to current 8k from Nov. 2020 to now
'Tax pocket' is the tax period on IRS bill statement. Somebody (could be IRS, could be seller's previous CPA...) made mistake to have the tax peroid as June 2019 in the original bill statement (150k). We noticed this until we received the right one with tax period of July 2019 in March 2020 only. This means that two tax pockets/period for one transaction. Right. Nobody would have such knowledge at the beginning, even escrow does not know.
8288 is seller's responsibility, that is true, But the escrow doesn't need 8288 to make correct payment to IRS. If seller makes a mistake on 8288, escrow should still make correct payment to IRS.
8288 reduces seller's withholding tax. If 8288 got rejected, they don't get reduced withholding. So escrow should pay IRS as if 8288 was never filed. How this led to your tax penalty is beyond me.
And even now if you can't say "Somebody (could be IRS, could be seller's previous CPA...) made mistake to have the tax peroid as June 2019" means you can't persuade judge what's wrong.
Seems that escrow does not have to pay IRS within 20days after c
If an application for a withholding certificate is submitted on Form 8288-B, Application for Withholding Certificate for Dispositions by Foreign Persons of U.S. Real Property Interests, to the IRS before or on the date of a disposition and the application is still pending with the IRS on the date of disposition, the statutory withholding tax must be withheld, but does not have to be reported and paid immediately to the IRS. The amount withheld (or lesser amount as determined by the IRS) must be reported and paid within 20 days following the day on which a copy of the withholding certificate or notice of denial is mailed to the transferee by the IRS.
If the principal purpose of applying for a withholding certificate is to delay paying over the withheld tax to the IRS, the transferee will be subject to interest and penalties. The interest and penalties will be assessed beginning on the 21st day after the date of transfer and ending on the day the payment is made.
The amount withheld (or lesser amount as determined by the IRS) must be reported and paid within 20 days following the day on which a copy of the withholding certificate or notice of denial is mailed to the transferee by the IRS.
8288b rejection letter was received on 11/04/2019.
Escrow should pay IRS before 11/04/2019+20 days, while they did it on 01/16/2020, which is two months later. Currently 8k penalty+interest is based on 6 month calculation from Aug. 2019-Jan. 2020.
I plan to argue with IRS to reduce the penalty/interest from 6 month calculation to 2 month calculation (8k+ to 3k) first. Then explain the hardship ....
请教各位一个法律问题。
我们两年前买了一个国内同胞的房子。因为卖家是外国人，需要fill 8288 form 和给IRS上交withholding 的钱。 卖家CPA及时filed 8288 b form , 但是escrow给IRS晚交了withholding money. 据escrow‘说’, 晚交钱是卖家CPA要求的也是正常的（8288b)。但是卖家因为不懂英文，错过IRS的补充材料要求的信件，导致8288b rejected。之后再给IRS交钱就晚了。IRS 按规定给作为买家的我们发了bill statement (failure-to-pay penalty+interests =8k). 在过去的一年半内，我们耗费了许多精力时间，和IRS, seller, escrow, agents 交流，大家基本同意是晚交了钱。
现在IRS bill statement 在我们买家名下, 追着我们要钱。我们是因该起诉escrow还是seller？对我们买家来说，我们只知道escrow晚交钱了。至于escrow和卖家CPA的communication，专业法规， 卖家错误...我们不懂也不明确知道。escrow建议我们直接起诉卖家。 卖家已经不住在本地了。我们很难找到卖家去small court呀。
请教我们是因该起诉escrow还是seller？
谢谢指点！
三个方式：
1. buyer sues escrow, escrow sues seller
2. buyer sues seller only
3. buyer sues escrow and seller together
usually you have to pay IRS first and get the money back from escrow later.
sur them both, it is joint liability.
1. Escrow给我们发了8288b document上有seller address, SSN, full name. 还在同一个州，已经在不同城市了。我们直接给esrow/seller一起发certified mail, 要求还钱？seller 不懂英文，我们自己加一个中文翻译？
2. 到时不还钱，然后再go to small claim court, sue both. 如果seller搬家找不到了，是不是就没办法了。那只sue escrow吗？
3. 要求seller pay IRS directly, or escrow， or us? 我可以要求IRS再延长一段时间。
中文翻译可以加，但并不是必须的
起诉一定是双方一起起诉，你起诉一方，另一方就会扯皮说不是他们的责任，有可能要加卖主，拖延时间
一般打官司不是你拖延IRS的理由，在IRS眼里是你的责任，你只能说你付不起这么多钱，financial hardship, 希望拖到官司了解再付。这个道理一定要想清楚，你可以自己打官司，可是税务责任是你的，以后去蹲监狱也是你去。
投资理财的群众都盼着柠檬大侠回归呢！
因為地產公司是按照賣方的要求辦事，特別是真正的問題是賣方的延宕與你們的不在意，所以 IRS 是找你們兩家，特別是你，因為你是這棟房屋的現任主人，至於 ESCROW 如果在文書處理上沒有違背賣方與買方的要求，那麼這家公司基本上就沒有錯，所以除非你有明確的證據證明這家公司並沒有按照賣方的要求辦事，因此造成這個情況，你基本上沒有一個好的案件來針對這家公司. 你能做的事是找賣方求償，(當然帶上這家公司是省去雙方互相扯皮的空間，所以檸檬老大所言不差)，但是如果你找不到賣方，這個訴訟根本打˙不下去，因為在這件事上，這家公司是對雙方負責，但是這件事，是賣方主動而不是這家公司。
老貓會建議您諮詢專業處理這一類與 IRS 有關案件的稅務律師，看看是否可以協商一個減輕罰金的條件或是一個分期付款的方式，然後你們自己只有認哉買單。(檸檬老大要你們哭窮是有道理的)，除非你能找到賣方，否則這可能是最省錢的方式.
今天listing agent和卖家联系上了。说是IRS还没refund 他们15万的8288withholding. 不知道IRS是不是可以直接从withholding里扣他们的钱。是不是不交这个8千，IRS就不refund那15万呀。这家的问题是完全不懂英文，listing agent用中文解释8288也听不明白。
不懂英文，不會找人翻譯? 對方腦筋有問題，你跟著一起瘋幹什麼? 你的問題是找這人把錢要到手，把欠 IRS 的錢交了...對方拿不拿得到 15 萬，不關你的事....
記住，IRS 是找你要錢，不是找他要錢，沒有什麼從他的錢中扣的道理，因為現在你是房主....你先管管自己的事，行不行...
卖方是应该给我们这$8000, 还是直接给IRS$8000?
你的问题只能靠诉讼解决，而且你还得先付IRS钱。
有的人以为别人有责任等于自己没有责任，这个观念是错误的。你有你的责任，别人有别人的责任。说实话你不付你的罚款，对方还有理由说罚款不对你可以说服IRS不付呢，这样的话他们为什么要付？
把你自己的事情做好，再去告别人。
所以我这边就和IRS交流（付钱，哭穷，要求减免分期...)
那边起诉seller支付我们8千8288related 罚款。不提他们自己8288 withholding 15万refund的事。
I think you can sue the escrow, you don't have to sue the seller.
The issue is withholding tax, not paying taxes. When a foreigner sell house in US, US tax law requires the seller (and their agent/title company) to WITHHOLD tax. The the foreign seller has no duty to "withhold" their own tax, because the whole purpose of withholding tax is to take the money to IRS BEFORE the foreigner get paid and prevent the money from leaving US.
So it is seller's fault that you did not WITHHOLD the tax. As your agent, the escrow company has the duty to withhold the tax and send the money to IRS. Whatever the reason they said about send the money late is fine, say it to the judge.
So you can sue the escrow alone. Make it about withholding, not about actually paying taxes.
这是一个long story. 我们作为买家, 花了80多个小时，call了IRS 30次, 真是仁至义尽。而8288本来是卖家的事。
1. 07/23/2019 close date
2. Oct. 2019, 我们收到第一封8288b rejection letter from IRS. Passed to escrow right away. Escrow told us nothing wrong.
3. Received bill statement of 15 万 from IRS (wrong pocket June 2019) in Nov 2019. Passed to escrow right away. Called IRS to understand the issue. Escrow told us nothing wrong.
4. Escrow sent IRS check on 01/16/2020 and IRS cashed it on 01/27/2020. Escrow told us nothing wrong.
5. Received bill statement of 19万 fromIRS（right pocket July 2019) in March 2020. Many phone calls to IRS/escrow to understand the issue.
6. Mailed IRS to correct wrong pocket issue in March 2020
7. Received the adjusted bill of 50k in Nov. 2020.
8. Many phones to futher correct interests/penalties from 50k+ to current 8k from Nov. 2020 to now
What is right pocket/wrong pocket? Your statement cannot persusade a small claim judge. becaues we don't know what you are talking about.
'Tax pocket' is the tax period on IRS bill statement. Somebody (could be IRS, could be seller's previous CPA...) made mistake to have the tax peroid as June 2019 in the original bill statement (150k). We noticed this until we received the right one with tax period of July 2019 in March 2020 only. This means that two tax pockets/period for one transaction. Right. Nobody would have such knowledge at the beginning, even escrow does not know.
That is how we spent 80 hours:).
賣方是否有綠卡? 同時 賣方是否在賣房那一年在美國居住超過 183 天?
老貓的直覺是，這個地產公司應該是相信賣方在美居住超過 183 天，所以依據 substantial presence test, 沒有在 20 天之內處理 這個預扣繳稅款，如果是這種情況，地產公司有可能不需要負責，因為地產公司可以將責任推給賣方，因為對方沒有提供正確的信息。(特別是您提到對方本身不會講英文，所以這中間有可能是語言上的誤解，因為地產公司不是移民局，所以一切資料是以買賣雙方所提供的資料為準)
良心說，老貓會建議您將兩件事，分開處理，先處理稅款的問題，減少損失。至於賠償的部份，你們應該有足夠的時間可以在日後再提出訴訟.
如果是绿卡，就不需要外国人form8288了。卖方房子在妈妈名下，孩子一个人在我们这读高中。
escrow/seller CPA 解释是他们filed 8288b (examption, primary residency, <=250k captigal gain), 所以escrow才不需要在close 21day内给IRS交钱。如果file 8288a, 就需要21day内交钱。
所以你們的工作是，必須弄清楚，地產公司的說法是否是正確的... 你們與 IRS 交涉時，對方的說法為何...事實上對方的房價應該可以在當地查得到，買價你們也知道，所以兩個數字相減就可以知道，地產公司所言是否有理....
I don't think you can handle this.
8288 is seller's responsibility, that is true, But the escrow doesn't need 8288 to make correct payment to IRS. If seller makes a mistake on 8288, escrow should still make correct payment to IRS.
8288 reduces seller's withholding tax. If 8288 got rejected, they don't get reduced withholding. So escrow should pay IRS as if 8288 was never filed. How this led to your tax penalty is beyond me.
And even now if you can't say "Somebody (could be IRS, could be seller's previous CPA...) made mistake to have the tax peroid as June 2019" means you can't persuade judge what's wrong.
If an application for a withholding certificate is submitted on Form 8288-B, Application for Withholding Certificate for Dispositions by Foreign Persons of U.S. Real Property Interests, to the IRS before or on the date of a disposition and the application is still pending with the IRS on the date of disposition, the statutory withholding tax must be withheld, but does not have to be reported and paid immediately to the IRS. The amount withheld (or lesser amount as determined by the IRS) must be reported and paid within 20 days following the day on which a copy of the withholding certificate or notice of denial is mailed to the transferee by the IRS.
If the principal purpose of applying for a withholding certificate is to delay paying over the withheld tax to the IRS, the transferee will be subject to interest and penalties. The interest and penalties will be assessed beginning on the 21st day after the date of transfer and ending on the day the payment is made.
The amount withheld (or lesser amount as determined by the IRS) must be reported and paid within 20 days following the day on which a copy of the withholding certificate or notice of denial is mailed to the transferee by the IRS.
Escrow should pay IRS before 11/04/2019+20 days, while they did it on 01/16/2020, which is two months later. Currently 8k penalty+interest is based on 6 month calculation from Aug. 2019-Jan. 2020.
I plan to argue with IRS to reduce the penalty/interest from 6 month calculation to 2 month calculation (8k+ to 3k) first. Then explain the hardship ....