有一个容易被人忽视的历史事实:美国空军在米格走廊内也拥有制空权。

h
hkzs
楼主 (文学城)

志愿军在米格走廊内不是就可以不受美军空袭的威胁了。米格走廊内的目标美军同样是狂轰滥炸的。所以共产党方面的空军始终无法进驻朝鲜境内的机场。所谓米格走廊的说法,只是表明联合国军在该区域内执行任务时,有可能和共产党军的米格战斗机遭遇,仅此而已!这点说明,别说志愿军空军,就是苏联空军也不是美国空军的对手。1:10的战损比是符合实际的。

清迈
联合国空军严格遵守“有限战争”的限制,轰炸鸭绿江桥也只炸朝鲜那段
清迈
联合国空军严格遵守“有限战争”的限制,轰炸鸭绿江桥也只炸朝鲜那段
h
hkzs
属实。如果联合国军可以轰炸丹东机场,共产党军的米格一架也上不了天。
b
borisg
真是胡说。你这个1:10纯粹是自己编造的。

Based on Soviet archival data, 335 Soviet MiG-15s are known to have been admitted as lost over Korea.[57] Chinese claims of their losses amount to 224 MiG-15s over Korea.[19] North Korean losses are not known, but according to North Korean defectors their air force lost around 100 MiG-15s during the war.[58] Thus a total of 659 MiG-15s are admitted as being lost by all causes, while USAF claims of their losses amount to 78 F-86 Sabres in air-to-air combat.[59] Overall UN losses to MiG-15s are credited as 78 F-86 Sabres and 75 aircraft of other types.[59] However, one modern source claims that the USAF has more recently cited 224 losses (circa 100 to air combat) out of 674 F-86s deployed to Korea.[60] Conversely, data-matching with Soviet records shows that US pilots routinely attributed their own combat losses to "landing accidents" and "other causes".[61] According to official US data ("USAF Statistical Digest FY1953"), the USAF lost 250 F-86 fighters in Korea: 184 were lost in combat (78 in air-combat, 19 by Anti-aircraft gun, 26 were "unknown causes" and 61 were "other losses") and 66 in incidents.</ref>[62]

More recent research by Dorr, Lake and Thompson has claimed the actual ratio is closer to 2 to 1.[63] The Soviets claimed to have downed over 600 Sabres,[64] together with the Chinese claims.[65] A recent RAND report[66] made reference to "recent scholarship" of F-86 v MiG-15 combat over Korea and concluded that the actual kill:loss ratio for the F-86 was 1.8 to 1 overall, and likely closer to 1.3 to 1 against MiGs flown by Soviet pilots.[57] However, this ratio were not count the number of aircraft of other types (B-29, A-26, F-80, F-82, F-84...) were shot down by MiG-15s.

世事沧桑
如果按照麦克阿瑟的想法,原子弹都用了。但杜鲁门是主张有限打击的。
h
hkzs
你那个一看就是老毛子后来为了掩盖自己的无能而编造的故事。202名苏军烈士在旅顺烈士墓躺着呢。

共产党方面抓获了多少美军飞行员?

别的不比,比比越南战争好了。

b
borisg
Based on Soviet archival data, 335 Soviet MiG-15s are known to h

Based on Soviet archival data, 335 Soviet MiG-15s are known to have lost (all causes).

US F86: 184 were lost in combat (78 in air-combat, 19 by Anti-aircraft gun, 26 were "unknown causes" and 61 were "other losses") and 66 in incidents.[62] 

Total loss 250 aircrafts, 31% in air-combat. Or excluding the 19 downed by AA guns, 78/231= about 34% air combat loss.

If you follow the same math, the Russian loss in air combat would have been about 110 aircrafts.  

 

g
gweipwu
麦克阿瑟想用原子弹从侧面说明他没有好办法了。就像Trump去年的所有表演一样。

杜鲁门是对的,是冷静的。当然是人都会做出这个选择。老毛是知道杜鲁门的底线的(可能是猜到的)。

但是杜鲁门是不知道老毛的底线的。

p
pangpangxiongxiong
美国空军对苏联空军1:10?美军占优有可能,1:10编的人自己相信吗?
p
pangpangxiongxiong
还有,苏军只出动战斗机,美军有轰炸机。除了战斗机对战斗机,还有战斗机对轰炸机
十具
Kill ratio of F-86 Sabre against MiG-15 is 7:1, after USAF's rev

这个统计没有区分苏、中、北朝鲜空军。苏美之间的数字可能没有这么难看。而且这仅仅是双方主力歼击机之间的格斗战国,联军肯定是丢了更多的轰炸机。

p
pangpangxiongxiong
苏军损失轰炸机数目大概是0,因为苏军没有轰炸机参战。中朝轰炸机参战了,但是数量少
p
pangpangxiongxiong
中方参战意愿不亚于苏联,因为美军打到边境。中国历史上对于打到中朝边境的都会出兵的
h
hkzs
1:10是双方米格15对F86的空战击落交换比。不含轰炸机,不含地面炮火,不算击伤返航和事故损失。

苏军在空战中牺牲202名飞行员,志愿军空军牺牲烈士116名。考虑到中苏空军作战空域全部都在共产党部队控制地区,所有跳伞落地的飞行员都可以归队,而美军飞行员一旦被击落,不死就是被俘。朝鲜战争中有很多美国飞行员被俘么?看看越南战争,多少美军飞行员被俘,就知道在朝鲜,美空军的损失比在越南小多了。而中苏空军牺牲飞行员总数就超过300名,算上跳伞归队的,损失数量超过700,因飞机性能原因,美军空战结果绝大多数都是F86的战果,所以美军F86的空战战果就有700余架(约792架,如果没记错的话),美军自己在空战中仅损失F86约78架,全部都是中苏米格15的战果,这就是双方1:10交换比的来历。

十具
越战战斗机格斗的kill ratio是1.52:1(美方数据),北越空军战绩比志愿军空军好得多。
h
hkzs
战场条件不同。越战时,美军只是对越南的事先确定的有限目标实施空袭,而韩战时,美军可以无限制地攻击北韩境内一切目标。
十具
台海空战,PRC说14:5赢了。ROC说32:3也赢了。读博士的同窗是个台湾人,曾在空军服兵役,

不止一次给我提10:1.  不知哪个网友有更可靠的source。蒋介石的空军也是怂到家了。内战时有制空权但不会俯冲轰炸,就干脆没有这个训练科目,空投物资还尽给对方送礼。二战时,我有认识的老人亲戚经武汉逃到重庆、成都、昆明,他们亲历了日本空军的骄狂和中国空军的惨状。武汉还拼一下(有苏联人直接参战),后来警报一响,守军飞机起飞不是迎敌而是逃跑。这个事实被土共用来证明国府的腐败无能。

R
Redcheetah
黔????机穷
吃素的狼
呵呵,朝鲜空战,米格15不怕 F80 和 F84,但是确实害怕后掠翼的 F86。

毕竟空战不比陆战,空中木有陆地那么多花露水,战机性能和飞行员技术决定胜败,打不过就是打不过,挨了炮弹就是机毁人亡。