【 在 zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】 : 按照“圣经”，治病的事你家“全知全能”的主子。睁大你的基眼看清楚了： : 雅各书 : 5：14 你们中间有病了的呢，他就该请教会的长老来。他们可以奉主的名用油抹他，为 : 他祷告。 : Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray : over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. : 5：15 出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来。他若犯了罪，也必蒙赦免。 : And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord : will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. : 中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来” : ...................
Great question. I am a Christian and I have the same question as you. I found so many contradictions in the teachings in my Church, which belongs to a branch of Reformed Calvinism. Just like you, I am very critical thinking and always ask a lot of questions. For example, how to look at the contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5? Is Justification by faith alone following Paul's teaching, or Justification by faith + work following James' teaching. Nobody in my Chinese church can give me a satisfactory answer.
So I did a lot of research by my own.
I finally found my own answer from a lot of teachings on the youtube.
It's all in English.
Here is one you can study first:
https://youtu.be/z-Ky65HIjtU
Thanks God for His Grace! I believe if you keep seeking His Word, you will get it!!
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : Great question. I am a Christian and I have the same question as you. I : found so many contradictions in the teachings in my Church, which belongs to : a branch of Reformed Calvinism. Just like you, I am very critical thinking : and always ask a lot of questions. For example, how to look at the : contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5? Is Justification by : faith alone following Paul's teaching, or Justification by faith + work : following James' teaching. : Nobody in my Chinese church can give me a satisfactory answer. : So I did a lot of research by my own. : I finally found my own answer from a lot of teachings on the youtube. : ...................
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Lots of the contradictions you found can be explained easily! You have to rightly divide the bible. This way of explaining the Bible is called Dispensation-ism. In each dispensation, God has different plans in terms of Salvation. God's command towards the Mankind is also different in each dispensation. We are now in the dispensation of the Grace. That's from Mid-Acts to Philemon. We also called it the Pauline doctrine. So if you found some verses from the Old testament or the James,John,and Peter's epistles and the four Gospels in the New testament which contradicts with Paul's epistles. It's NOT really a contradiction. Because they're for different dispensations, and also for different groups of people. Those epistles and the four Gospels are for Jews, while Pauline doctrine are for us, the Christian today.
For example, You found out lots of problems in New Testament. Those are NOT from Paul's epistles. So those commandments ARE NOT followed by Today's Christians.
The bad thing is that you can't find any of those teachings in Chinese Churches. And in Chinese Christian Communities, we usually treat the whole bible without rightly dividing. That causes a lot of confusions even within Christians!
That's why I went to seek explanation in English. And I have to say that I found almost all of questions answered!
For example, regarding the Grace, Free gift of Salvation from God. I can't find any good teachings on this topic in Chinese. Maybe in every Chinese Christian's mind, we always want to contribute our works towards our Salvation. We don't truly understand God's Salvation is TOTALLY FREE.
After you understand this AMAZING GRACE from God, it's easy to take this free Gift from God.
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : Maybe I didn't make myself clear. : Lots of the contradictions you found can be explained easily! : You have to rightly divide the bible. This way of explaining the Bible is : called Dispensation-ism. : In each dispensation, God has different plans in terms of Salvation. God's : command towards the Mankind is also different in each dispensation. : We are now in the dispensation of the Grace. That's from Mid-Acts to : Philemon. We also called it the Pauline doctrine. : So if you found some verses from the Old testament or the James,John,and : Peter's epistles and the four Gospels in the New testament which contradicts : ...................
These are your questions: 问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如：
“圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？
“圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵 守？
First of all, you make sure where the commandments are from. Are they from Paul's teaching (According to Paul epistles)? If so, we should definitely obey. Second, I don't believe Christians are able to obey all commandments God set up for us. Third, Do our Salvation depend on our obedience? The answer is NO.
So my answer to your question is: Yes, we should obey the teachings in the Bible which are for us. But I understand NO Christians are able to obey all the teachings. Do we still get the Salvation by God even if we can't obey all commandments from God? Yes. Because our Salvation has NOTHING TO DO with our obedience!!
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : These are your questions: : 问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如： : “圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？ : “圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵 : 守？ : First of all, you make sure where the commandments are from. Are they from : Paul's teaching (According to Paul epistles)? If so, we should definitely : obey. : Second, I don't believe Christians are able to obey all commandments God set : up for us. : ...................
: First of all, you make sure where the commandments are from. Are they from : Paul's teaching (According to Paul epistles)? If so, we should definitely : obey.
【 在 beechan (beechan) 的大作中提到: 】 : ======================================== : I guess you have typo'd "contrdiction", : no big deal. : The bigger issue is that you are unable to spot your own error and allow it : to sit there for a day, with no intention to correct it. : 真是要為你抺抺油
Oh come on, your experience is not representative of what most experienced by Chinese Christians. All the Chinese churches I have been to taught salvation as a free gift from God.
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : The bad thing is that you can't find any of those teachings in Chinese : Churches. And in Chinese Christian Communities, we usually treat the whole : bible without rightly dividing. That causes a lot of confusions even within : Christians! : That's why I went to seek explanation in English. And I have to say that I : found almost all of questions answered! : For example, regarding the Grace, Free gift of Salvation from God. I can't : find any good teachings on this topic in Chinese. Maybe in every Chinese : Christian's mind, we always want to contribute our works towards our : Salvation. We don't truly understand God's Salvation is TOTALLY FREE. : ...................
Please check Romans 7: 18-20. Paul said that he wants to do good, but actually do evil.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
As you can see, even Apostle Paul struggles with Sin. That's Christian's perspective on Sin!!
I think you might have gone to some Chinese Churches, or Bible Study which often teaches LORDSHIP SALVATION. You should check out from google how lordship salvation lead Christians to Hell!
True Christians NEVER underestimate SIN. We should NEVER boast our GOOD work, or GOOD behavior!! Actually, from God's eye, All our good works are filthy rags.
Oh come on, your experience is not representative of what most experienced by Chinese Christians. All the Chinese churches I have been to taught salvation as a free gift from God.
====================
Yes, they teach you Salvation is a free gift from God. But then they backload the Gospel with works like this:
Yes, Justice is by faith alone! But if you truly believe, you have to do good works. The good work is required to show your true faith!
Justification is by faith alone. But if you truly believe, you WILL (not that you have to) do good works. Works are merely the fruits and signs of justification, not the cause thereof.
Because of the Catholic church, Luther almost developed a phobia against works. However, works of faith are a manifestation of faith itself, just as James pointed out that faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead. How would you expect dead faith to be able to save you?
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : Oh come on, your experience is not representative of what most experienced : by Chinese Christians. All the Chinese churches I have been to taught : salvation as a free gift from God. : ==================== : Yes, they teach you Salvation is a free gift from God. But then they : backload the Gospel with works like this: : Yes, Justice is by faith alone! But if you truly believe, you have to do : good works. The good work is required to show your true faith! : This is called Lordship Salvation
Check out this video. https://youtu.be/hlHA9_ZvIIU
It answered your concerns!!
【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】 : Justification is by faith alone. But if you truly believe, you WILL (not : that you have to) do good works. Works are merely the fruits and signs of : justification, not the cause thereof. : Because of the Catholic church, Luther almost developed a phobia against : works. However, works of faith are a manifestation of faith itself, just as : James pointed out that faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is : dead. How would you expect dead faith to be able to save you?
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : Check out this video. https://youtu.be/hlHA9_ZvIIU : It answered your concerns!!
Hi, Ngi098
Thanks for your sharing this link.
In the video it was mentioned that James 2:24 was just for Jews in tribulation. As I understand, the book of James was written to the Jews but many parts can be applied to all Christians as well including James 2:24. EpochLife's sharing above is the orthodox explanation.
The Salvation given by God to us is by Grace, through Faith. (Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.)
It has NOTHING to do with our works. (Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.) 【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】 : 这不是圣经里的commandment 而只是当时的一个practice，时代会变迁，有的 practice : 还能用，但有的明显已经不适用了。 : 圣经里的commandment是超越时空的永恒的真理，比如‘我们若说是与神相交，却仍在 : 黑暗里行，就是说谎话，不行真理了’，又比如‘不要爱世界和世界上的事’，这些诫 : 命就是到了世界的末了也是有效的，而我们也要努力做到，不能为自己找个原因，认为 : 本来就做不到，所以没关系，也不影响救恩，这是个态度问题。 : 而且随着灵命的成长和对神的经历，你会很惊讶的发现自己所能做到的在生命中的每个 : 阶段都不一样，现在能做到的也许是信仰初期你根本无法想象自己有一天能够做到的。
I think it's bad teaching because it is NOT biblical. Lordship Salvation is so commonly taught, especially in Chinese Churches!!
Please study Dispensationism from Dr. Kim. He has a great video on it:
https://youtu.be/GI4CteEFxOk
My church teaches lordship salvation too. Since there are a lot of contradictions between Paul's teaching and other apostles' teaching, they usually can't really answer any questions on those contradiction.
I feel so disappointed that there are so little Chinese who understand God's Grace!!!
I think it might be our Chinese traditions. Grace means: the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings. However we don't have corresponding word for GRACE.
【 在 Primeval (waaaowao) 的大作中提到: 】 : Hi, Ngi098 : Thanks for your sharing this link. : In the video it was mentioned that James 2:24 was just for Jews in : tribulation. : As I understand, the book of James was written to the Jews but many parts : can be applied to all Christians as well including James 2:24. EpochLife's : sharing above is the orthodox explanation. : Regarding to lordship salvation: These are two affirming articles from John : Piper and his ministry. : http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html : ...................
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : I think it's bad teaching because it is NOT biblical. : Lordship Salvation is so commonly taught, especially in Chinese Churches!!: Please study Dispensationism from Dr. Kim. He has a great video on it: : https://youtu.be/GI4CteEFxOk : My church teaches lordship salvation too. Since there are a lot of : contradictions between Paul's teaching and other apostles' teaching, they : usually can't really answer any questions on those contradiction.
I hope we are talking about the same thing.
According to this definition, I don't see any problem with "lordship salvation". Can you elaborate?
"The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts."
There is no contradiction between Paul's teaching and James' teaching as explained in EpochLife's post. I believe both EpochLife and I agree grace is free. No question for that. But many people rejected grace not because they were told it's not free but they didn't understand it's precious.
1. Lordship Salvation is NOT biblical. It contradicts with "Justification by faith alone". Please check this video: https://youtu.be/V68rZSdsshM
2. You don't think there's a contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5? James claims Justification by faith + work, while Paul claims Justification by faith alone. Even unbelievers found the contradiction of the two.
【 在 Primeval (waaaowao) 的大作中提到: 】 : I hope we are talking about the same thing. : According to this definition, I don't see any problem with "lordship : salvation". Can you elaborate? : "The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as : Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation : is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching : that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts." : There is no contradiction between Paul's teaching and James' teaching as : explained in EpochLife's post. I believe both EpochLife and I agree grace : is free. No question for that. But many people rejected grace not because : ...................
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】 : 1. Lordship Salvation is NOT biblical. : It contradicts with "Justification by faith alone". : Please check this video: https://youtu.be/V68rZSdsshM : 2. You don't think there's a contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans : 4:5? : James claims Justification by faith + work, while Paul claims Justification : by faith alone. : Even unbelievers found the contradiction of the two.
1. OK. "Lordship Salvation" is NOT biblical, meaning, If a person think salvation is not free and he wants to save himself with his own work, he will never succeed and end up losing the free salvation. And "easy- believism" is NOT biblical. meaning, If a person thought he is saved through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts without repenting, accepting Jesus as his savior and Lord, he is actually not saved.
Are we on the same page now? :)
2 An unbeliever will find out there is contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5 and could laugh at these so called errors in the Bible. A believer will try to figure out why James and Paul seemed to have different ideas and he would at least check the commentary.
James 2:23-24 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
"Righteousness" in James most likely refers to vindication before men after one’s actions are seen, while "righteousness" in Paul refers to forensic declaration of innocence before God; "Believe" in James is mere intellectual assent (“even the demons believe and shudder” [Jas 2:19]), while for Paul it is a full embracing of the Savior as the only way in which one can escape damnation; "Works" in James are works of mercy and are a necessary response of the believing heart; "Work" in Rom 4 are works of the Law as a means to obtaining salvation and, as such, are flawed and powerless;
James rebukes "easy-believism" Paul rebukes "Lordship Salvation"
问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如：
“圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？
“圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵
守？
我的论点是：基们毫无疑问应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导。下面是详细的论证。
耶稣给基们最大的诫命是用全部的身体全部的思想全部的灵魂去爱主子。这个基们都是知道的。
问题：基们应该当如何去“爱主”？看“圣经”：
传道书
12:13 这些事都已听见了。总意就是敬畏神，谨守他的诫命，这是人所当尽的本分。
（或作这是众人的本分）
可见，根据“圣经”，遵守主子的诫命乃是基们应尽的本分！
而且：
约翰福音 14:15 你们若爱我，就__必__遵守我的命令。
约翰一书 5：3 我们遵守神的诫命，这就是爱他了。并且他的诫命不是难守的。
在里耶稣同学明确说了，“你们若爱我，就__必__遵守我的命令”！而且，按照“圣经”，“他的诫命不是难守的”！
那么问题来了：
“圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，基们遵守吗？
“圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们遵守吗？
基们嘴巴上把“圣经”说的神圣无比，行动上却把“圣经”的教导当成一个P放了。基
督徒们就是这么令人恶心。
继续有请 jidutuus 对话。
本人时间和精力有限，对极其傻逼的问题或者我认为没有意义的问题直接忽略。
如果我没有回答你的问题，有可能是我没看见，也可能是我认为你的问题极其傻逼我认为没有意义。所以，如果你认为你的问题很重要，追问几遍都没搭理你的话，那就是后者了。
【 在 zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如：
: “圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？
: “圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵
: 守？
: 我的论点是：基们毫无疑问应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导。下面是详细的论证。: 耶稣给基们最大的诫命是用全部的身体全部的思想全部的灵魂去爱主子。这个基们都是
: 知道的。
: 问题：基们应该当如何去“爱主”？看“圣经”：
: 传道书
: 12:13 这些事都已听见了。总意就是敬畏神，谨守他的诫命，这是人所当尽的本分。
: ...................
继续有请 jidutuus 对话。
请基们继续！
请基们继续！
请基们继续！
面对我的批判，有些基们大谈什么“读经原则”。。。。。。
回答：请用你的“读经原则”来反驳我对基督教的批判。
还有些基们说什么“断章取义”。。。。。。
回答：我哪里“断章取义”了？请拿出上下文出来给大家分析一下嘛！光是喊口号有什么意思？
面对我的批判，有些基们大谈什么“读经原则”。。。。。。
回答：请用你的“读经原则”来反驳我对基督教的批判。
还有些基们说什么“断章取义”。。。。。。
回答：我哪里“断章取义”了？请拿出上下文出来给大家分析一下嘛！光是喊口号有什么意思？
面对我的批判，有些基们大谈什么“读经原则”。。。。。。
回答：请用你的“读经原则”来反驳我对基督教的批判。
还有些基们说什么“断章取义”。。。。。。
回答：我哪里“断章取义”了？请拿出上下文出来给大家分析一下嘛！光是喊口号有什么意思？
面对我的批判，有些基们大谈什么“读经原则”。。。。。。
回答：请用你的“读经原则”来反驳我对基督教的批判。
还有些基们说什么“断章取义”。。。。。。
回答：我哪里“断章取义”了？请拿出上下文出来给大家分析一下嘛！光是喊口号有什么意思？
好帖顶起来祝大家新年快乐！
基督徒如果不抹油是个人问题，主要的是上帝是存在的。
【 在 snoppyfirst (snoppy) 的大作中提到: 】
: 基督徒如果不抹油是个人问题，主要的是上帝是存在的。
你为什么不抹油呢？
我如果不抹油以后有可能会被上帝骂一顿。。就这样简单。
我个人的问题。
请问为何因此事而邪恶呢？
（你这不就是故意找题材来诋毁教会么？）
【 在 zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你为什么不抹油呢？
【 在 snoppyfirst (snoppy) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我如果不抹油以后有可能会被上帝骂一顿。。就这样简单。
: 我个人的问题。
: 请问为何因此事而邪恶呢？
: （你这不就是故意找题材来诋毁教会么？）
你为什么不抹油呢？
当然邪恶了。基督教信仰包好好的人变得如此虚伪不要脸：嘴巴上把“圣经”说的神圣无比，行动上却把“圣经”“新约”的教导当成屁放了。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
基们假装看不见的帖子，顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来。
好帖顶起来
好帖顶起来
哈哈哈！基们就这样假装没看见我的帖子？
好帖顶起来。
很简单，那个是历史上的事，神对当时的人的指导。
那时对当时的人有效。对现在的人不一定有效。
现在有效的是原则，不是具体的做法。
这个是告诉我们，医生能给人看病，开药，但要治好病，
还是要靠神，也就是我们说的天意。
另外，抹油是当时的人的普遍治病方法，并不是教会的专门方法。
参看萨马利亚人医治那个被强盗打伤的人的故事。萨马利亚人并不是基督徒。
但也用油抹人治病。
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
: 很简单，那个是历史上的事，神对当时的人的指导。
: 那时对当时的人有效。对现在的人不一定有效。
:
你是说，你家“全知全能”“看千年如一日”的主子通过“圣经”“新约”启示出来的教导已经过时了？？？？？？？
请你明确一下！
原则永不过时，应用随时而变，你这刻舟求剑的智力理解不了。
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
: 原则永不过时，应用随时而变，你这刻舟求剑的智力理解不了。
哈哈哈！白字红黑字，中英文对照，上下文清清楚楚明明白白：
你家主子通过“圣经”“新约”要求基们生病的时候找人来抹油/祷告。
这个要求到底过时了没有？如果你认为过时了，为什么？
“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”，难道你家主子现在治不了病了？
请问你的医生还抹油给你治病吗？
但是耶稣时代医生是抹油给人治病的，
现在医生不这样干了
没有就是过时了，
这样简单的道理，就是有些人装白吃不知道。
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
: 油抹治病过时了大家都知道，
: 请问你的医生还抹油给你治病吗？
: 但是耶稣时代医生是抹油给人治病的，
: 现在医生不这样干了
: 没有就是过时了，
: 这样简单的道理，就是有些人装白吃不知道。
按照“圣经”，治病的事你家“全知全能”的主子。睁大你的基眼看清楚了：
雅各书
5：14 你们中间有病了的呢，他就该请教会的长老来。他们可以奉主的名用油抹他，为他祷告。
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray
over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
5：15 出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来。他若犯了罪，也必蒙赦免。
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord
will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”
英文：“And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well”
看得懂不？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？
引了这样多经文，和你的论据没有半毛钱关系。
这些经文就说了两件事：
1。要用祷告和信心。
医生能给人看病，开药，但要治好病，
还是要靠神，也就是我们说的天意。所以要用祷告和信心。
2。当时的条件下，大众的医疗方法是抹油。所以让长老来抹油。
相当于现在去看医生。
所以，这些经文就说明一件事，生病了，要看医生，更重要的是要祷告。
搞了半天，你是在用错误的方法解经，然后说基督徒没有遵守你的错误解法的结论。
然后说你用错误解经得到的结果不可信，不可行。
你自己爱打自己的嘴是你的事，别拉上我们，我不同意你的解法，也不会按你的解法去行。
【 在 zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 按照“圣经”，治病的事你家“全知全能”的主子。睁大你的基眼看清楚了：
: 雅各书
: 5：14 你们中间有病了的呢，他就该请教会的长老来。他们可以奉主的名用油抹他，为
: 他祷告。
: Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray
: over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
: 5：15 出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来。他若犯了罪，也必蒙赦免。
: And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord
: will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
: 中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”
: ...................
看来怎么解经才是至关重要的。
我试图在本地教会讨论这些问题。一开始，他们还很和蔼的解释，但他们的解释完全不能再逻辑上通过。他们还一副功德圆满的样子，我想不明白也不好意思打破砂锅问到底。问得多了，我可以感觉到他们的不耐烦，虽然表面上还是很友善。后来我就不去了。唱歌吃饭真的没意思。
我知道这个要靠“信”而不是靠逻辑。但我没办法让自己信。
圣经字字珠玑，完全没有错误，这是共识，不再讨论。
不同的人有不同的解经方式，甚至不同的牧师都有不同的解释。
那么有没有一个全部基督徒都认可，权威的，全面完整的解经？
解经是人做的，人会犯错，怎么能保证这个权威解经的正确性？
能不能让神再出版个解经大全？
有没有一个判断解经对错的标准？能够对圣经自圆其说的就是正确的？
把“抹油”解释成为“看医生”有点牵强附会。“祷告和信心”导致为了解释而解释。在解释之前，目标已经明确。从这种角度说，圣经已经不重要。不管圣经怎么写，只要你努力解读，都会达到自己的目标。
妇女进教会应该”闭口不言”怎么解释？
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
: 引了这样多经文，和你的论据没有半毛钱关系。
: 这些经文就说了两件事：
: 1。要用祷告和信心。
: 医生能给人看病，开药，但要治好病，
: 还是要靠神，也就是我们说的天意。所以要用祷告和信心。
: 2。当时的条件下，大众的医疗方法是抹油。所以让长老来抹油。
: 相当于现在去看医生。
: 所以，这些经文就说明一件事，生病了，要看医生，更重要的是要祷告。
: 搞了半天，你是在用错误的方法解经，然后说基督徒没有遵守你的错误解法的结论。: 然后说你用错误解经得到的结果不可信，不可行。
: ...................
没错，解经不能凭自己想当然。
要考虑到当时的历史条件下，神对那时候的人说那个话是什么意思。
而且要联系上下文，不能取一段就孤立的解。
然后知道精义，灵活运用到当代。
很多异端邪教都是源于错误的解经。
正统的是历史文法解经，看历史，看文法，不只是字面，
因为我们看的都是翻译过来的，不是原文。
光看字面就会犯这个楼主的笑话。
对于基本教义，读解基本上已经是完美了，
差别的只是局部，因为人的所学有限，当然千差万别。
所以不要钻牛角尖。
如果真要钻，就要钻到底，看原文，找参考资料，不要把牧师讲的当真理，
不要一知半解当真理。权威的解经当然有，但是内容太多，一般的人看不了。
也没有必要去看。
一个是commentary，一个是原文圣经。但是这些要搞清楚，要有足够的背景知识，
比如希伯来文，比如古中东历史。
对于解经能力，神学院教授〉牧师〉一般基督徒，如果有机会，可以向神学院的教授请教。
哥仑比亚国际学院的陆苏河教授有个对联关于解经：
上下文体裁背景，渐启明一惯要清
http://ced-qbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/%E7%A0%94%E8%AF%BB%E5%9C%A3%E7%BB%8F%EF%BC%88%E4%B8%80%EF%BC%89.pdf
【 在 johncrane (tar -xvf) 的大作中提到: 】
: 看来怎么解经才是至关重要的。
: 我试图在本地教会讨论这些问题。一开始，他们还很和蔼的解释，但他们的解释完全不
: 能再逻辑上通过。他们还一副功德圆满的样子，我想不明白也不好意思打破砂锅问到底
: 。问得多了，我可以感觉到他们的不耐烦，虽然表面上还是很友善。后来我就不去了。
: 唱歌吃饭真的没意思。
: 我知道这个要靠“信”而不是靠逻辑。但我没办法让自己信。
: 圣经字字珠玑，完全没有错误，这是共识，不再讨论。
: 不同的人有不同的解经方式，甚至不同的牧师都有不同的解释。
: 那么有没有一个全部基督徒都认可，权威的，全面完整的解经？
: 解经是人做的，人会犯错，怎么能保证这个权威解经的正确性？
: ...................
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: 2。当时的条件下，大众的医疗方法是抹油。所以让长老来抹油。
: 相当于现在去看医生。
: 所以，这些经文就说明一件事，生病了，要看医生，更重要的是要祷告。
:
当基督徒一定要像你这样不要脸吗？
按照“圣经”，治病的事你家“全知全能”的主子。睁大你的基眼看清楚了：
雅各书
5：14 你们中间有病了的呢，他就该请教会的长老来。他们可以奉主的名用油抹他，为他祷告。
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray
over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
5：15 出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来。他若犯了罪，也必蒙赦免。
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord
will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”
英文：“And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well”
看得懂不？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？
中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”
英文：“And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well”
看得懂不？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？
中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”
英文：“And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well”
看得懂不？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？
中文：“出于信心的祈祷，要救那病人，主必叫他起来”
英文：“And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well”
看得懂不？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？？
治病的是你家“全知全能”的主子！
这和“当时”如何如何有什么关系？
当基督徒一定要像你这样不要脸吗？！！！
好帖顶起来。
Great question. I am a Christian and I have the same question as you. I
found so many contradictions in the teachings in my Church, which belongs to a branch of Reformed Calvinism. Just like you, I am very critical thinking and always ask a lot of questions. For example, how to look at the
contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5? Is Justification by
faith alone following Paul's teaching, or Justification by faith + work
following James' teaching.
Nobody in my Chinese church can give me a satisfactory answer.
So I did a lot of research by my own.
I finally found my own answer from a lot of teachings on the youtube.
It's all in English.
Here is one you can study first:
Thanks God for His Grace! I believe if you keep seeking His Word, you will
get it!!
扯淡。这个问题哪有什么contrdiction?
“新约”清清楚楚明明白白没有丝毫含糊地要求基督徒们生病的时候要找教会的人来抹油/祷告！
不要自欺欺人了。
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: Great question. I am a Christian and I have the same question as you. I
: found so many contradictions in the teachings in my Church, which belongs to
: a branch of Reformed Calvinism. Just like you, I am very critical
thinking
: and always ask a lot of questions. For example, how to look at the
: contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5? Is Justification by
: faith alone following Paul's teaching, or Justification by faith + work
: following James' teaching.
: Nobody in my Chinese church can give me a satisfactory answer.
: So I did a lot of research by my own.
: I finally found my own answer from a lot of teachings on the youtube.
: ...................
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 扯淡。这个问题哪有什么contrdiction?
: “新约”清清楚楚明明白白没有丝毫含糊地要求基督徒们生病的时候要找教会的人来抹
: 油/祷告！
: 不要自欺欺人了。
: to
: thinking
============================================
笑了!
你的英文程度.............真的有點爛!
大叔，你在反基的时候才比较可爱！
【 在 beechan (beechan) 的大作中提到: 】
: ============================================
: 笑了!
: 你的英文程度.............真的有點爛!
人家号称定居佛罗里达的理工博士，有的理工生，英语确实不好，可能老七就是这样的。
【 在 beechan (beechan) 的大作中提到: 】
: ============================================
: 笑了!
: 你的英文程度.............真的有點爛!
【 在 beechan (beechan) 的大作中提到: 】
: ============================================
: 笑了!
: 你的英文程度.............真的有點爛!
随便笑。我英文的确不怎么样。好在我对基督教的批判和我的英文水平无关。逼残同学能理解这一点吗？
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 随便笑。我英文的确不怎么样。好在我对基督教的批判和我的英文水平无关。逼残同学
: 能理解这一点吗？
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
不止英文程度不好，
視力也麻麻。。。
一見人家寫著： I am a Christian
便血壓也高了四十度似的！
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 随便笑。我英文的确不怎么样。
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
真有點高傲，
這麼爛的英文閱讀理解能力，
還敢說『不怎么样』， 一副『蠻可以的』模樣！
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 扯淡。这个问题哪有什么contrdiction?
========================================
I guess you have typo'd "contrdiction",
no big deal.
The bigger issue is that you are unable to spot your own error and allow it to sit there for a day, with no intention to correct it.
真是要為你抺抺油
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 好帖顶起来。
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
上次發帖是
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
发信站: BBS 未名空间站
(Fri Nov 4 23:52:15 2016, 美东)
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
要２０個月才有力『頂一頂』
體弱多病矣？
【 在 beechan (beechan) 的大作中提到: 】
: ＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
: 不止英文程度不好，
: 視力也麻麻。。。
: 一見人家寫著： I am a Christian
: 便血壓也高了四十度似的！
我来这里的目的是要帮助更多的人们认清楚基督教的邪恶本质。
本人对基督教的批判，逻辑严谨，证据清楚。如果我对基督教的批判有问题，欢迎反驳。别的问题不奉陪。没兴趣也没时间。
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: 本人对基督教的批判，逻辑严谨，证据清楚。如果我对基督教的批判有问题，欢迎反驳
: 。别的问题不奉陪。没兴趣也没时间。
-------------------------------------------
你的帖，早兩年前便全反駁過了。
你回應不了便潛逃29個月。
駁回了的我也不想重說。
我的時間比你的更寶貴。
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我来这里的目的是要帮助更多的人们认清楚基督教的邪恶本质。
:--------------------------
可惜你未達目的前便先露醜。
Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
Lots of the contradictions you found can be explained easily!
You have to rightly divide the bible. This way of explaining the Bible is
called Dispensation-ism.
In each dispensation, God has different plans in terms of Salvation. God's
command towards the Mankind is also different in each dispensation.
We are now in the dispensation of the Grace. That's from Mid-Acts to
Philemon. We also called it the Pauline doctrine.
So if you found some verses from the Old testament or the James,John,and
Peter's epistles and the four Gospels in the New testament which contradicts with Paul's epistles. It's NOT really a contradiction. Because they're for different dispensations, and also for different groups of people. Those
epistles and the four Gospels are for Jews, while Pauline doctrine are for
us, the Christian today.
For example, You found out lots of problems in New Testament. Those are NOT from Paul's epistles. So those commandments ARE NOT followed by Today's
Christians.
易中天说：圣经是个契约，用来规范道德行为。所以叫新约，旧约。
是非常先进的。中国如果也有这样的宗教，那不至于落后挨打。
但是古代的约，拿到现在就落后了。所以解经的说法就来了。其实就是重新订可以适应当下社会的道德契约。
The bad thing is that you can't find any of those teachings in Chinese
Churches. And in Chinese Christian Communities, we usually treat the whole
bible without rightly dividing. That causes a lot of confusions even within Christians!
That's why I went to seek explanation in English. And I have to say that I
found almost all of questions answered!
For example, regarding the Grace, Free gift of Salvation from God. I can't
find any good teachings on this topic in Chinese. Maybe in every Chinese
Christian's mind, we always want to contribute our works towards our
Salvation. We don't truly understand God's Salvation is TOTALLY FREE.
After you understand this AMAZING GRACE from God, it's easy to take this
free Gift from God.
【 在 leuning (none) 的大作中提到: 】
: 其实各路大神都有道理。
: 易中天说：圣经是个契约，用来规范道德行为。所以叫新约，旧约。
======================================
圣经是个契约，用来规范道德行为。所以叫新约，旧约
這話, 有點想補充。
這說法有點給中文翻譯『新约，旧约』誤導了。
若是指契約， 那麼， 就應說是 Old Convenant , New Convenant
猶太文中也有另一個字 ﹝ בְּרִית
berith ﹞來指盟約， 協定。
Testament 是指作証， 証明的意思。
字根是 tri-st-i ， 有『三個人』的含意，
是古時的社會解決紏爭規法，
一事若能有三個人以上的作証，
便可當實。
这个很正常。但是比较新的分支往往被指责为修正主义，被压制。但是最后还是被接受，因为符合时代潮流。
你的脑子是不是有问题？这篇帖子根本没有谈什么contradiction！！！明白？现在的
问题是：
1）“圣经”“新约”清清楚楚的教导，是否要不要遵守？
2）“圣经”“新约”清清楚楚鼓励基督徒们独身，是不是？连鼓励基督徒们独身的理
由都说得清清楚楚！
既然容易解释，你就解释嘛！！！啰里啰唆东拉西扯有什么意思！
Get to the point!
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
: Lots of the contradictions you found can be explained easily!
: You have to rightly divide the bible. This way of explaining the Bible is : called Dispensation-ism.
: In each dispensation, God has different plans in terms of Salvation. God's
: command towards the Mankind is also different in each dispensation.
: We are now in the dispensation of the Grace. That's from Mid-Acts to
: Philemon. We also called it the Pauline doctrine.
: So if you found some verses from the Old testament or the James,John,and
: Peter's epistles and the four Gospels in the New testament which
contradicts
: ...................
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你的脑子是不是有问题？这篇帖子根本没有谈什么contradiction！！！明白？现在的
: 问题是：
: 1）“圣经”“新约”清清楚楚的教导，是否要不要遵守？
: 2）“圣经”“新约”清清楚楚鼓励基督徒们独身，是不是？连鼓励基督徒们独身的理
: 由都说得清清楚楚！
: 既然容易解释，你就解释嘛！！！啰里啰唆东拉西扯有什么意思！
: Get to the point!
: contradicts
==========================
來了個新版友，
你又可以將幾年前的帖重貼一遍了
怪不得你手上的十多個帖子，
夠用十年
These are your questions:
问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如：
“圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？
“圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵
守？
First of all, you make sure where the commandments are from. Are they from
Paul's teaching (According to Paul epistles)? If so, we should definitely
obey.
Second, I don't believe Christians are able to obey all commandments God set up for us.
Third, Do our Salvation depend on our obedience? The answer is NO.
So my answer to your question is: Yes, we should obey the teachings in the
Bible which are for us. But I understand NO Christians are able to obey all the teachings. Do we still get the Salvation by God even if we can't obey
all commandments from God? Yes. Because our Salvation has NOTHING TO DO with our obedience!!
我喜欢这个解释。
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: These are your questions:
: 问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如：
: “圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？
: “圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵
: 守？
: First of all, you make sure where the commandments are from. Are they from
: Paul's teaching (According to Paul epistles)? If so, we should definitely : obey.
: Second, I don't believe Christians are able to obey all commandments God
set
: up for us.
: ...................
: First of all, you make sure where the commandments are from. Are they from
: Paul's teaching (According to Paul epistles)? If so, we should definitely : obey.
白纸黑字的经文你看不见？？？“新约”不仅明明白白地鼓励基督徒们独身，而且把鼓励基督徒们独身得理由说的清清楚楚。这些理由现在显然成立。
: Second, I don't believe Christians are able to obey all commandments God
set
: up for us.
: ...................
你不努力去遵守的话，你怎么知道你做得到做不到？总不能用这个借口把你家主子通过新约启示出来的教导当成P放了吧？
其次，按照耶稣的说法，如果你爱耶稣，你就一定能遵守你家主子得“诫命”：
约翰 14:15 你们若爱我，就必遵守我的命令。
你不遵守，说明你不爱你家主子！
第三，你是不是“得救”我根本不关心不在意。我只是要让大家看看基督徒们令人恶心的虚伪：一方面嘴巴上把“圣经”说得神圣无比，一方面在行动上把“新约”的教导当成P放掉了。
要尊重别人的信仰，是吧？
其实我对基督教也有意见：当年去教会围着几个未婚姐妹转。她们说快入教呀！我说你以身相许，然后我入教做你的master.
居然没一个姐妹献身！
于是我没被拯救。但是也不反感她们呀。
大兄弟是不是被骗到人财两空，所以来此释放负能量？
人参苦短，抓紧享受。反正以后你也上不了天堂，是吧？
我写漏了一个关键字导致整句话意思反了，但你居然看懂了。以前和你辩论时讲得多清楚你都似懂非懂的，是咋回事呐？
【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】
: 大叔，你在反基的时候才比较可爱！
老七，可别这样。我现在就是对别的事情很感兴趣，想问你别的问题。
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我来这里的目的是要帮助更多的人们认清楚基督教的邪恶本质。
: 本人对基督教的批判，逻辑严谨，证据清楚。如果我对基督教的批判有问题，欢迎反驳
: 。别的问题不奉陪。没兴趣也没时间。
Oh, not just for a day but for ages.
【 在 beechan (beechan) 的大作中提到: 】
: ========================================
: I guess you have typo'd "contrdiction",
: no big deal.
: The bigger issue is that you are unable to spot your own error and allow
it
: to sit there for a day, with no intention to correct it.
: 真是要為你抺抺油
Oh come on, your experience is not representative of what most experienced
by Chinese Christians. All the Chinese churches I have been to taught
salvation as a free gift from God.
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: The bad thing is that you can't find any of those teachings in Chinese
: Churches. And in Chinese Christian Communities, we usually treat the whole
: bible without rightly dividing. That causes a lot of confusions even
within
: Christians!
: That's why I went to seek explanation in English. And I have to say that I
: found almost all of questions answered!
: For example, regarding the Grace, Free gift of Salvation from God. I can't
: find any good teachings on this topic in Chinese. Maybe in every Chinese
: Christian's mind, we always want to contribute our works towards our
: Salvation. We don't truly understand God's Salvation is TOTALLY FREE.
: ...................
帖子前面有JasonYang 和mafbxh 等的解释才是比较到位的，你为什么会喜欢这个解释？
【 在 marten9 (marten9) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我喜欢这个解释。
: set
老七，你终于彪了句英语了，赞！
不过这是不是你笔记本里面常用英文表达方式中的一句，和你的反基帖子一样？多少年了，就是这么十几个？
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 你的脑子是不是有问题？这篇帖子根本没有谈什么contradiction！！！明白？现在的
: 问题是：
: 1）“圣经”“新约”清清楚楚的教导，是否要不要遵守？
: 2）“圣经”“新约”清清楚楚鼓励基督徒们独身，是不是？连鼓励基督徒们独身的理
: 由都说得清清楚楚！
: 既然容易解释，你就解释嘛！！！啰里啰唆东拉西扯有什么意思！
: Get to the point!
: contradicts
有关！本来中文帖子水平就很低，再加上非常烂的英文，大家会对你的credibility有
大大的疑问的啦。
【 在 wusuoju (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 随便笑。我英文的确不怎么样。好在我对基督教的批判和我的英文水平无关。逼残同学
: 能理解这一点吗？
Please check Romans 7: 18-20. Paul said that he wants to do good, but
actually do evil.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that
dwelleth in me.
As you can see, even Apostle Paul struggles with Sin. That's Christian's
perspective on Sin!!
I think you might have gone to some Chinese Churches, or Bible Study which
often teaches LORDSHIP SALVATION. You should check out from google how
lordship salvation lead Christians to Hell!
True Christians NEVER underestimate SIN. We should NEVER boast our GOOD work, or GOOD behavior!! Actually, from God's eye, All our good works are filthy rags.
Oh come on, your experience is not representative of what most experienced
by Chinese Christians. All the Chinese churches I have been to taught
salvation as a free gift from God.
====================
Yes, they teach you Salvation is a free gift from God. But then they
backload the Gospel with works like this:
Yes, Justice is by faith alone! But if you truly believe, you have to do
good works. The good work is required to show your true faith!
This is called Lordship Salvation
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: Please check Romans 7: 18-20. Paul said that he wants to do good, but
: actually do evil.
哈哈哈！笑死人了。什么叫“圣经”是你家主子启示出来得“真理”？“新约”中的使徒书信代表的是你家主子的意思还是使徒们自己的意思？嗯？？？
如果“新约”的教导代表的是你家主子主子的意思，你这些废话有什么意义？
这里发言的都是上年纪的wsn, 和塞班一样。
区别是：这里你们互相骂。
打是亲，骂是爱。难道这是个同志版？？？
被吸引到这个帖子是因为这个帖子上了mitbbs首页导读。
公平地讲，好象”zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳)”的说法比较合乎逻辑。
【 在 zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳) 的大作中提到: 】
: 问题：基督徒们是否应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导？比如：
: “圣经”“新约”明确要求女基督徒们在教会要“闭口不言”，母基们是否应该遵守？
: “圣经”“新约”明确要求基督徒们生病的时候要请人来抹油/祷告，基们是否应该遵
: 守？
: 我的论点是：基们毫无疑问应该遵守“圣经”“新约”的教导。下面是详细的论证。: 耶稣给基们最大的诫命是用全部的身体全部的思想全部的灵魂去爱主子。这个基们都是
: 知道的。
: 问题：基们应该当如何去“爱主”？看“圣经”：
: 传道书
: 12:13 这些事都已听见了。总意就是敬畏神，谨守他的诫命，这是人所当尽的本分。
: ...................
【 在 maple7518 (Mapletree7518) 的大作中提到: 】
: 被吸引到这个帖子是因为这个帖子上了mitbbs首页导读。
: 公平地讲，好象”zhaowendao (嘁哩喀喳)”的说法比较合乎逻辑。
===============================================
有問:
你用上了甚麼的準則來𨤸定『公平』？
JasonYang的解释是说抹油只是描述性论述，时代不同了，不一定要照做。
mafbxh的解释是说要领会精神，抹油就相当于看医生，病好不好还要靠信心，靠上帝。
我喜欢ngi098的解释，这确实是圣经的诫命，你应该照做但没做到，不过没关系，做不到也不影响你得救。
这个抹油很像旧约里说的割礼，god对摩西说，孩子产后要行割礼。 这算不算描述性论述不知道，反正god亲口对摩西说的。结果保罗给外邦人传教的时候就说了，割不割礼
物所谓，让你得救的是信心，不是你割不割礼，守不守法。
【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】
: 帖子前面有JasonYang 和mafbxh 等的解释才是比较到位的，你为什么会喜欢这个解
释？
我想明确一点，
抹油不是圣经的诫命，这一点和割礼是不一样的。虽然都有信心成份。
但是等级是完全不一样的。
整个基督教是建立在圣约基础上的，旧约是诫命，包括了割礼，对以色列人来说，是必须守的，因为是约的一部分。
新约是信耶稣，由耶稣完成诫命。完成了旧约的要求。抹油不是约的一部分。
所以新约里面的要求，比如抹油，蒙头，抓蛇，独身等等，
都是和当时时代相应的应用，而不是必须的要求。
就同ngi098说的一样，和得救无关。
只是在当时的条件下，对人有益处，凡应用的东西，都要随时代变化，
就如同圣经上说的，心意更新而变化，明白何为神纯全可喜悦的心意，
所以，只要抓住精神本质就可以了。
所以我说的和jason yang 说的没有本质区别。
而我在另外一文中提到的基督教有意思的内容之一，就是如何通过抓住精神本质，
灵活的去运用到今天这个完全不同的社会，而不是刻舟求剑的死板，成为沉闷的宗教仪式。就如同圣经上说的，字句叫人死，而精义叫人活。
【 在 marten9 (marten9) 的大作中提到: 】
: JasonYang的解释是说抹油只是描述性论述，时代不同了，不一定要照做。
: mafbxh的解释是说要领会精神，抹油就相当于看医生，病好不好还要靠信心，靠上帝。
: 我喜欢ngi098的解释，这确实是圣经的诫命，你应该照做但没做到，不过没关系，做不
: 到也不影响你得救。
: 这个抹油很像旧约里说的割礼，god对摩西说，孩子产后要行割礼。 这算不算描述性论
: 述不知道，反正god亲口对摩西说的。结果保罗给外邦人传教的时候就说了，割不割礼
: 物所谓，让你得救的是信心，不是你割不割礼，守不守法。
: 释？
”新约是信耶稣“， 能不能解释一下，怎么样算信耶稣？
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我想明确一点，
: 抹油不是圣经的诫命，这一点和割礼是不一样的。虽然都有信心成份。
: 但是等级是完全不一样的。
: 整个基督教是建立在圣约基础上的，旧约是诫命，包括了割礼，对以色列人来说，是必
: 须守的，因为是约的一部分。
: 新约是信耶稣，由耶稣完成诫命。完成了旧约的要求。抹油不是约的一部分。
: 所以新约里面的要求，比如抹油，蒙头，抓蛇，独身等等，
: 都是和当时时代相应的应用，而不是必须的要求。
: 就同ngi098说的一样，和得救无关。
: 只是在当时的条件下，对人有益处，凡应用的东西，都要随时代变化，
: ...................
这个在每一个基督徒受洗的时候，牧师都会问的。
圣经上也明确说了的。但是在这里我就不展开说了，免得再节外生枝，
你查老帖子，应该都有。总之和抹油什么的没什么关系。
【 在 marten9 (marten9) 的大作中提到: 】
: ”新约是信耶稣“， 能不能解释一下，怎么样算信耶稣？
【 在 mafbxh (whitehorse) 的大作中提到: 】
: 我想明确一点，
: 抹油不是圣经的诫命，这一点和割礼是不一样的。虽然都有信心成份。
: 但是等级是完全不一样的。
哈哈哈！笑死人了！听说“圣经”是你家“全知全能”得主子启示出来的真理，请问什么叫做“圣经”是你家主子启示出来的？
你家主子通过“新约”启示了：基督徒们生病了要找人类抹油！是不是？等级什么的，“圣经”上没有，完全是你自己的想象。我只想问问：如果“新约”是你家主子启示出来的，你凭什么把你家主子启示出来的教导当成那种难闻的气体放掉了？？？
我只想问问：如果“新约”是你家主子启示出来的，你凭什么把你家主子启示出来的教导当成那种难闻的气体放掉了？？？
我只想问问：如果“新约”是你家主子启示出来的，你凭什么把你家主子启示出来的教导当成那种难闻的气体放掉了？？？
Justification is by faith alone. But if you truly believe, you WILL (not
that you have to) do good works. Works are merely the fruits and signs of
justification, not the cause thereof.
Because of the Catholic church, Luther almost developed a phobia against
works. However, works of faith are a manifestation of faith itself, just as James pointed out that faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is
dead. How would you expect dead faith to be able to save you?
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: Oh come on, your experience is not representative of what most experienced
: by Chinese Christians. All the Chinese churches I have been to taught
: salvation as a free gift from God.
: ====================
: Yes, they teach you Salvation is a free gift from God. But then they
: backload the Gospel with works like this:
: Yes, Justice is by faith alone! But if you truly believe, you have to do
: good works. The good work is required to show your true faith!
: This is called Lordship Salvation
这不是圣经里的commandment 而只是当时的一个practice，时代会变迁，有的practice还能用，但有的明显已经不适用了。
圣经里的commandment是超越时空的永恒的真理，比如‘我们若说是与神相交，却仍在
黑暗里行，就是说谎话，不行真理了’，又比如‘不要爱世界和世界上的事’，这些诫命就是到了世界的末了也是有效的，而我们也要努力做到，不能为自己找个原因，认为本来就做不到，所以没关系，也不影响救恩，这是个态度问题。
而且随着灵命的成长和对神的经历，你会很惊讶的发现自己所能做到的在生命中的每个阶段都不一样，现在能做到的也许是信仰初期你根本无法想象自己有一天能够做到的。
【 在 marten9 (marten9) 的大作中提到: 】
: JasonYang的解释是说抹油只是描述性论述，时代不同了，不一定要照做。
: mafbxh的解释是说要领会精神，抹油就相当于看医生，病好不好还要靠信心，靠上帝。
: 我喜欢ngi098的解释，这确实是圣经的诫命，你应该照做但没做到，不过没关系，做不
: 到也不影响你得救。
: 这个抹油很像旧约里说的割礼，god对摩西说，孩子产后要行割礼。 这算不算描述性论
: 述不知道，反正god亲口对摩西说的。结果保罗给外邦人传教的时候就说了，割不割礼
: 物所谓，让你得救的是信心，不是你割不割礼，守不守法。
: 释？
要信耶稣，就要承认自己是个罪人，悔改是第一步，而不是到处找可以让自己相信的路子。就像施洗约翰为犹太人施悔改的洗并‘预备主的道，修直他的路’。你现在需要做修路的工作。
【 在 marten9 (marten9) 的大作中提到: 】
: ”新约是信耶稣“， 能不能解释一下，怎么样算信耶稣？
【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】
: 要信耶稣，就要承认自己是个罪人，悔改是第一步，而不是到处找可以让自己相信的路
: 子。就像施洗约翰为犹太人施悔改的洗并‘预备主的道，修直他的路’。你现在需要做
: 修路的工作。
【 在 marten9 (marten9) 的大作中提到: 】
: ”新约是信耶稣“， 能不能解释一下，怎么样算信耶稣？
EpochLife弟兄说的好。
悔改是看到自己作为一个人的不完全的地方，和信耶稣，是一个事情的两方面。
一个人如果不知道耶稣和祂所做的事，不会悔改。
一个人如果不悔改，他就不会信耶稣。
信耶稣，对有些人是突然发生的。对另外一些人却是一个长时间的过程。
信耶稣，对有些人会经历重大的情感上的变化，对有些人却是很简单，很平静的事情。
信耶稣这个重大改变和之后持续不断的改变又有不同。信耶稣是一生中一次的，面对救恩和福音的消息，决定离弃自己作为一个人的不完全，开始信靠，效法基督。是一个大里程碑。而之后的生命中，会有持续不断的改变，是一些小一点的里程碑。
这里发言的都是上年纪的wsn, 和塞班一样。
区别是：这里你们互相骂。
打是亲，骂是爱。难道这是个同志版？？？
Check out this video. https://youtu.be/hlHA9_ZvIIU
It answered your concerns!!
【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】
: Justification is by faith alone. But if you truly believe, you WILL (not
: that you have to) do good works. Works are merely the fruits and signs of : justification, not the cause thereof.
: Because of the Catholic church, Luther almost developed a phobia against
: works. However, works of faith are a manifestation of faith itself, just
as
: James pointed out that faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is
: dead. How would you expect dead faith to be able to save you?
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: Check out this video. https://youtu.be/hlHA9_ZvIIU
: It answered your concerns!!
Hi, Ngi098
Thanks for your sharing this link.
In the video it was mentioned that James 2:24 was just for Jews in
tribulation.
As I understand, the book of James was written to the Jews but many parts
can be applied to all Christians as well including James 2:24. EpochLife's
sharing above is the orthodox explanation.
Regarding to lordship salvation: These are two affirming articles from John Piper and his ministry.http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/letter-to-a-friend-concerning-the-so-called-lordship-salvation
I wonder why you think it's bad teaching.
I appreciate your contribution to the forum and look forward to learning
together with you.
I think your mix Salvation with Sanctification.
The Salvation is FREE!!
The Salvation given by God to us is by Grace, through Faith.
(Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more
grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.)
It has NOTHING to do with our works.
(Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God.)
【 在 EpochLife (Wind) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这不是圣经里的commandment 而只是当时的一个practice，时代会变迁，有的
practice
: 还能用，但有的明显已经不适用了。
: 圣经里的commandment是超越时空的永恒的真理，比如‘我们若说是与神相交，却仍在
: 黑暗里行，就是说谎话，不行真理了’，又比如‘不要爱世界和世界上的事’，这些诫
: 命就是到了世界的末了也是有效的，而我们也要努力做到，不能为自己找个原因，认为
: 本来就做不到，所以没关系，也不影响救恩，这是个态度问题。
: 而且随着灵命的成长和对神的经历，你会很惊讶的发现自己所能做到的在生命中的每个
: 阶段都不一样，现在能做到的也许是信仰初期你根本无法想象自己有一天能够做到的。
I think it's bad teaching because it is NOT biblical.
Lordship Salvation is so commonly taught, especially in Chinese Churches!!
Please study Dispensationism from Dr. Kim. He has a great video on it:
My church teaches lordship salvation too. Since there are a lot of
contradictions between Paul's teaching and other apostles' teaching, they
usually can't really answer any questions on those contradiction.
I feel so disappointed that there are so little Chinese who understand God's Grace!!!
I think it might be our Chinese traditions. Grace means:
the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of
sinners and the bestowal of blessings.
However we don't have corresponding word for GRACE.
【 在 Primeval (waaaowao) 的大作中提到: 】
: Hi, Ngi098
: Thanks for your sharing this link.
: In the video it was mentioned that James 2:24 was just for Jews in
: tribulation.
: As I understand, the book of James was written to the Jews but many parts : can be applied to all Christians as well including James 2:24. EpochLife's
: sharing above is the orthodox explanation.
: Regarding to lordship salvation: These are two affirming articles from
John
: Piper and his ministry.
: http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
: ...................
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: I think it's bad teaching because it is NOT biblical.
: Lordship Salvation is so commonly taught, especially in Chinese Churches!!: Please study Dispensationism from Dr. Kim. He has a great video on it:
: https://youtu.be/GI4CteEFxOk
: My church teaches lordship salvation too. Since there are a lot of
: contradictions between Paul's teaching and other apostles' teaching, they : usually can't really answer any questions on those contradiction.
I hope we are talking about the same thing.
According to this definition, I don't see any problem with "lordship
salvation". Can you elaborate?
"The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as
Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts."
There is no contradiction between Paul's teaching and James' teaching as
explained in EpochLife's post. I believe both EpochLife and I agree grace
is free. No question for that. But many people rejected grace not because
they were told it's not free but they didn't understand it's precious.
这里发言的都是上年纪的wsn, 和塞班一样。
区别是：这里你们互相骂。
打是亲，骂是爱。难道这是个同志版？？？
1. Lordship Salvation is NOT biblical.
It contradicts with "Justification by faith alone".
Please check this video: https://youtu.be/V68rZSdsshM
2. You don't think there's a contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5?
James claims Justification by faith + work, while Paul claims Justification by faith alone.
Even unbelievers found the contradiction of the two.
【 在 Primeval (waaaowao) 的大作中提到: 】
: I hope we are talking about the same thing.
: According to this definition, I don't see any problem with "lordship
: salvation". Can you elaborate?
: "The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as
: Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship
salvation
: is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the
teaching
: that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts."
: There is no contradiction between Paul's teaching and James' teaching as
: explained in EpochLife's post. I believe both EpochLife and I agree grace
: is free. No question for that. But many people rejected grace not because
: ...................
【 在 ngi098 (Ngi) 的大作中提到: 】
: 1. Lordship Salvation is NOT biblical.
: It contradicts with "Justification by faith alone".
: Please check this video: https://youtu.be/V68rZSdsshM
: 2. You don't think there's a contradiction between James 2:14-26 and
Romans
: 4:5?
: James claims Justification by faith + work, while Paul claims
Justification
: by faith alone.
: Even unbelievers found the contradiction of the two.
1. OK. "Lordship Salvation" is NOT biblical, meaning, If a person think
salvation is not free and he wants to save himself with his own work, he
will never succeed and end up losing the free salvation. And "easy-
believism" is NOT biblical. meaning, If a person thought he is saved
through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts without repenting,
accepting Jesus as his savior and Lord, he is actually not saved.
Are we on the same page now? :)
2
An unbeliever will find out there is contradiction between James 2:14-26 and Romans 4:5 and could laugh at these so called errors in the Bible.
A believer will try to figure out why James and Paul seemed to have
different ideas and he would at least check the commentary.
James 2:23-24
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Romans 4:5
And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the
ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
"Righteousness" in James most likely refers to vindication before men after one’s actions are seen, while "righteousness" in Paul refers to forensic
declaration of innocence before God;
"Believe" in James is mere intellectual assent (“even the demons believe
and shudder” [Jas 2:19]), while for Paul it is a full embracing of the
Savior as the only way in which one can escape damnation;
"Works" in James are works of mercy and are a necessary response of the
believing heart; "Work" in Rom 4 are works of the Law as a means to
obtaining salvation and, as such, are flawed and powerless;
James rebukes "easy-believism"
Paul rebukes "Lordship Salvation"
Are we on the same page now? :)
刚才在youtube 上看了 圣严法师和达赖嗽嘛对话。
马上意识到：佛教 更适合本版天天吵架的wsn们。
你们吵来吵去，是烦恼未尽，恶念/善念未断。心理亚健康。
洋教不是不好，但你们这样土法炼钢，是修不成正果的。
佛教，特别是禅宗，可以帮助各位提高心理素质。这是上帝也愿意见到滴！
新约/旧约一开始为什么是希伯莱文，而不是中文？上帝早有应地制宜地眷顾世界各地
人类的考量。让中国人信佛教是神的inclusiveness.
Wsn 们还是回头是岸吧。等修成菩提以后，再投基督才更符合神的本意。
【 在 leuning (none) 的大作中提到: 】
: 刚才在youtube 上看了 圣严法师和达赖嗽嘛对话。
: 马上意识到：佛教 更适合本版天天吵架的wsn们。
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
哦。。。
原來是推銷佛教的
【 在 leuning (none) 的大作中提到: 】
不是不好，但你们这样土法炼钢，是修不成正果的。
佛教，特别是禅宗，可以帮助各位提高心理素质。这是上帝也愿意见到滴！
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
佛陀一死， 他的弟子， 上座部， 大眾部便開始互罵了，
耶穌死後１５００年， 才出現新教與羅馬教會分裂，
互罵。
【 在 leuning (none) 的大作中提到: 】
新约/旧约一开始为什么是希伯莱文
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
一開口，便說出了不及格的話來。